Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

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spydutch
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Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby spydutch » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:01 am

Greetings you all :)

Long time no speak.
Have a question and hope you can help me out on this.

Couple of years ago I got me a used Dragonfly Salt. Wen I got it I immediately cecked for play and such (OCD :o ) and te knife was rock solid.
However when I checked the screws I noticed that the pivot screw was entirely loose. I took it out and even then there was no side to side play.
I locktited it and upon fastening I noticed whe I got to the point of feeling even the least of resistance/catching, the knife became considerably harder to open. When I loosened the screw back it was good again. But now it had a loose pivot screw.

Yesterday I received my Dragonfly Salt Hawk brand new and exactly the same thing.
Neither screws are stripped or turning loose.

I hope this makes all sense.

Both knives are perfect and rock solid only with loose pivot screws. Strange...

Hope you can help me out on this.

Thanx for reading and ave a nice sunday ;)

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Cambertree
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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Cambertree » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:38 am

Strange. I have a few different Dragonflies, and none of them have had that issue.

The only thing I can think of, is if the blade feels solid with the pivot screw completely loosened, then the lockbar screw may be overtightened. You might try loosening it a little, then tightening the pivot screw down a bit, then tighten the lockbar screw to just beyond finger tight, and do the final adjustment to the pivot screw.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Doc Dan » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:00 am

That’s odd, indeed. I can’t imagine how that can be. Sorry.
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Evil D
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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Evil D » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:20 am

My experience with these knives is that you have to choose between no blade play and a smooth easy to open pivot or you tighten the pivot and remove blade play and make the action stiff. I find the best balance between the two and leave it alone. I would also highly recommend you don't use any thread locker on these pivots, I have two Dragonflies I can't take apart anymore because the whole pivot pin spins in the handle.
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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby The Meat man » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:20 pm

I often find the balance between stiff action and blade play to be extremely precise. Sometimes it seems like I am way over loosening the pivot screw to attain this balance, but I figure as long as I put locktite on the screw it should be fine.

^ I have to agree with David, though. The Dragonfly pivots seem to be especially susceptible to free spinning pivots. I have been unable to disassemble mine from the factory, because the pivot just spins in the handle when I try turning it. Not a big deal since it's a Salt model, but I wouldn't mind seeing a little CQI applied to this issue sometime.
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Cambertree
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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Cambertree » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:46 pm

Yeah I think I've mentioned before that the Dragonfly is IMHO one of Sal's perfect designs. But I'd forgotten about that non-D shaped pivot hole in the FRN. That's definitely something in need of CQI attention.

The first Spydie I fitted custom scales on was a Dragonfly. Arrrgh, what a frustrating experience!

I ended up using CA superglue to fix the female side of the pivot screw to the scales, and have never dismantled a Dragonfly since, lol.

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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Elshauno » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:45 pm

Cambertree wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:46 pm
Yeah I think I've mentioned before that the Dragonfly is IMHO one of Sal's perfect designs. But I'd forgotten about that non-D shaped pivot hole in the FRN. That's definitely something in need of CQI attention.

The first Spydie I fitted custom scales on was a Dragonfly. Arrrgh, what a frustrating experience!

I ended up using CA superglue to fix the female side of the pivot screw to the scales, and have never dismantled a Dragonfly since, lol.
Both of my Dfly salts have a D shaped pivot holes, disassembly/reassembly was super easy compared to my Endura

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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Evil D » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:10 pm

Cambertree wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:46 pm
Yeah I think I've mentioned before that the Dragonfly is IMHO one of Sal's perfect designs. But I'd forgotten about that non-D shaped pivot hole in the FRN. That's definitely something in need of CQI attention.

The first Spydie I fitted custom scales on was a Dragonfly. Arrrgh, what a frustrating experience!

I ended up using CA superglue to fix the female side of the pivot screw to the scales, and have never dismantled a Dragonfly since, lol.

The pivot is a D shape, the problem is that FRN can only handle so much torque on the pivot screws before the hole rounds out and the FRN can no longer hold the pivot pin from spinning. This is why IMO every knife needs small minimalist liners around the pivot pin to prevent this from happening (ala Manix 2 LW). If you thread lock the pivot screws on these knives you're really asking for it.
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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Cambertree » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:38 pm

Evil D wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:10 pm
The pivot is a D shape, the problem is that FRN can only handle so much torque on the pivot screws before the hole rounds out and the FRN can no longer hold the pivot pin from spinning. This is why IMO every knife needs small minimalist liners around the pivot pin to prevent this from happening (ala Manix 2 LW). If you thread lock the pivot screws on these knives you're really asking for it.
Elshauno wrote: Both of my Dfly salts have a D shaped pivot holes, disassembly/reassembly was super easy compared to my Endura
Thanks, and I obviously need to amend my comment above, with apologies to Sal.

I took out the old Dragonfly FRN scales and they do have a kind of indent tab to make the pivot hole D shaped.

Interestingly, the D appears to only be on one side, the other looks like it was always round.

I’m an idiot! The problem was of course not with the original FRN scales, but that the Koa wood custom scales I replaced them with had round pivot holes drilled, without a D shape. :o :rolleyes:

You can see where I had to glue the the female side of the pivot screw into the scales. Also, now I remember that the hole was not countersunk to allow the washers to drop in, so that may have added to the difficulty.

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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Evil D » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:57 am

Cambertree wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:38 pm

I’m an idiot! The problem was of course not with the original FRN scales, but that the Koa wood custom scales I replaced them with had round pivot holes drilled, without a D shape. :o :rolleyes:

If they would just replace the pivot with one that has screws on both sides, you could locktite one screw and not the other, so you could then use a torx driver on each side at the same time and the screw without the locktite would always break loose and you'd be good to go. With the single screw/dome head pivot, you can't grab onto the dome side and stop it from spinning. You could maybe cut a slot into it and use a flat head screwdriver but that would also end up pretty ugly looking if you aren't careful.
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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Ez556 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:28 am

Evil D wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:10 pm
The pivot is a D shape, the problem is that FRN can only handle so much torque on the pivot screws before the hole rounds out and the FRN can no longer hold the pivot pin from spinning. This is why IMO every knife needs small minimalist liners around the pivot pin to prevent this from happening (ala Manix 2 LW). If you thread lock the pivot screws on these knives you're really asking for it.
This exact thing happened to my dad’s brand new Para 3 LW when I tried to move the pocket clip for him. The little D stripped immediately and the clip screw just spun in place, I ended up disassembling the rest of the knife before I finally found a way to hold the thing from spinning so I could loosen the screw. A little frustrating to say the least, feeling like I ruined his brand new knife haha
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sal wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:28 am
But in reality, there is nothing quite like a gun. And it has been said, "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun".
Sumdumguy wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:35 am
Does that complexity decrease the simplicity? Not at all.

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Ez556
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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Ez556 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:41 am

Evil D wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:20 am
My experience with these knives is that you have to choose between no blade play and a smooth easy to open pivot or you tighten the pivot and remove blade play and make the action stiff. I find the best balance between the two and leave it alone.
More to the point of the thread, this has been my experience with my example as well. I’ve noticed a fair amount of play in all directions, and when I tighten the pivot just enough to remove the play, the knife is stiff to open. I live with the play to keep the better action.
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sal wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:28 am
But in reality, there is nothing quite like a gun. And it has been said, "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun".
Sumdumguy wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:35 am
Does that complexity decrease the simplicity? Not at all.

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Evil D
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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Evil D » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:24 am

Ez556 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:41 am
Evil D wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:20 am
My experience with these knives is that you have to choose between no blade play and a smooth easy to open pivot or you tighten the pivot and remove blade play and make the action stiff. I find the best balance between the two and leave it alone.
More to the point of the thread, this has been my experience with my example as well. I’ve noticed a fair amount of play in all directions, and when I tighten the pivot just enough to remove the play, the knife is stiff to open. I live with the play to keep the better action.

I just tested my Salt version and it actually doesn't have a hint of side play but it does rock up and down just a bit, but I blame that more on the back lock bar raising when you press the blade into something. When you wiggle the blade side to side you can see the flex in the pivot, but it doesn't really "feel" the same as what you might feel in a Para 2. It's adjusted so that I can press the lock bar in and the blade doesn't drop with gravity but it will drop with a little wrist jiggle, which is how I like my back locks especially if they have a 50/50 choil that'll drop down onto your index finger.

Ultimately the fact that I can't take it apart is definitely a bummer and I wish they'd address this issue, but since it is a Salt model the real need for taking it apart is a lot less than with other models so I'll live with it. It probably falls under some kind of warranty issue but I've had this knife for nearly 10 years now and I feel like I'd be cheating Spyderco if I asked them to replace it. It's still perfectly usable and I have a lot of history with the little fella.
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Cambertree
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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Cambertree » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:47 am

Evil D wrote: If they would just replace the pivot with one that has screws on both sides, you could locktite one screw and not the other, so you could then use a torx driver on each side at the same time and the screw without the locktite would always break loose and you'd be good to go. With the single screw/dome head pivot, you can't grab onto the dome side and stop it from spinning. You could maybe cut a slot into it and use a flat head screwdriver but that would also end up pretty ugly looking if you aren't careful.
Yeah, that seems like it would be an easy fix, D. The clip screw is that double sided torx head design anyway on the Dragonfly models, in contrast to the clip screws on the slipjoints which have that rounded off head on one side.

I agree that the adjustment point between ‘no blade play’ and ‘smooth easy opening’ is very precise. Usually it seems to be less than an eighth of a turn.

One thing about minor blade play, is sometimes I go to check a knife that I’ve been using for a few months, and I find there’s minor blade play, which is nothing to be get excited about after extensive use, considering I don’t always use loctite on pivots.

Now I always adjust it out for OCD reasons, but the point is, I never, never notice that tiny bit of side to side play on well used knives, while I’m actually using them.

Lock rock on back locks is another story. I don’t like that little bit of ‘give’ at all, when you loop up some pallet strapping to cut it, pushing the knife away from you and pulling the looped strap towards you.

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Evil D
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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Evil D » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:21 am

Hmm I wonder if a clip screw and pin would fit the pivot? I would try buuuuut I can't take mine apart.
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Cambertree
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Re: Pivot screw Dragonfly Salt

Postby Cambertree » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:34 am

Evil D wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:21 am
Hmm I wonder if a clip screw and pin would fit the pivot? I would try buuuuut I can't take mine apart.
Yeah I’m looking at one of my Dragonflies (the SE Salt) and wondering the same thing!

I don’t want to strip the pivot hole though!

Edit: OK, I had to try it out. They’re different sizes.

Aaand it went back together fine as well. :)

Action’s nice and smooth, with no blade play and being aware of the issue now, I just took care not to overtighten, when adjusting the pivot.


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