Edge retention, real use, edge damage

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tonijedi
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Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby tonijedi » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:31 am

Most of the discussions related to steel choices are based on edge retention alone. I understand that, it's very appealing to think of a knife that will stay sharp "forever" but then I read many people saying they'll sharpen a knife after every time they use it because they prefer to have a nice edge all the time. Don't you guys think this kind of limits the value of the edge retention attribute?

Other thing is edge damage. There was a period when I was using my VG10 Delica a lot and decided to switch for a ZDP-189 version. The edge on the VG10 specimen was decaying in 1 or 2 days of use, sure the ZDP189 would be better. And the first impression was exactly that, edge retention was noticeable better... but, as the tasks were random and many times implicated banging the edge against metals or bricks, it turned really hard to maintain the ZDP-189 at high sharpness levels. I would come home tired from work and couldn't even thing about sharpening it...

So guys, what do you think about this apparent duality? Is edge retention being too much praised in the knife world?

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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:32 pm

tonijedi wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:31 am
So guys, what do you think about this apparent duality? Is edge retention being too much praised in the knife world?
Absolutely. Toughness, geometry, corrosion resistance - these things can play huge roles as well.

I mentioned it in the myths thread, but if you're the kind of guy to do frequent touch-ups to maintain that freshly sharpened edge feeling, then a lower carbide steel that's easy to sharpen would likely better serve you.

Using microbevels, a thin back bevel and an easy to grind steel, I can do touch-ups in thirty seconds. My PE Pacific Salt is a perfect example. I can use it to slice cardboard until it has no scrape shaving ability, and in thirty seconds I'll have it back to popping hairs.

Sharpening is a lot less tedious when you can knock out a touch-up in a minute with a single stone instead of getting out five stones, honing oil, fifteen different strops and making an evening of it.

For me, H1 is a bigger game changer compared to 440C than stuff like S110V and ZDP189. It is so much tougher than any of those steels, and 100% rust proof.

One thing that I think does not get mentioned enough, is the role sharpening skill plays relative to edge retention. Someone who is a very good sharpener will be able to get better edge retention out of VG10 than someone with poor sharpening skills gets from S110V. Knowing how to optimize the edge angle and grit finish further increases the disparity.
Last edited by AccountDeletedUserRequest on Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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p_atrick
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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby p_atrick » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:45 pm

tonijedi wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:31 am
So guys, what do you think about this apparent duality? Is edge retention being too much praised in the knife world?
When people talk about edge retention and their desire for knives that cut all day, I take them at their word. They are saying that because that is what the want/need/prefer. Could they be succumbing to group think and trends in the knife community? I guess, but who am I to say? I think it is important to figure out what are the characteristics that you desire. Once you know that, your knife buying and using habits take shape on their own. I prefer steels that sharpen up nice and easy (on non-diamond or CBN water stones), take a keen edge, and I would prefer some corrosion resistance (though I would be most willing to break this rule if the steel was so good on the other two properties). So I don't much care about edge retention. It's not what I want/need, and those who do will never see things my way. And that's okay.

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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby zuludelta » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:36 pm

I think many knife users fixate on edge retention because it is relatively quantifiable through easily-understood "bro science" testing. This isn't a criticism, mind you, just my take on why edge retention is sort of the go-to characteristic when most folks compare steels & why it has become a mainstay element in knife marketing & promotion.

For my purposes, I prefer a relatively economic well-balanced knife steel over an exotic, expensive steel that excels solely in edge retention over anything else. I work a physically demanding job & I also run & hike a lot, so I value corrosion resistance perhaps a bit more than your typical knife user (something like Maxamet would probably develop some staining--if not outright pitting--after a humid day or two in a sweaty work trousers/hiking pants pocket or in the sweaty waistband of running shorts).

For my warehouse job (where a folding knife is my primary tool) & for running/hiking, I almost always carry a folding knife in VG-10, H1, CTS-BD1/CTS-BD1N, S30V/S35VN, or LC200N. S30V/S35VN is a fair bit less corrosion-resistant than the other steels I tend to carry, of course, but it is still plenty stainless & the advantage it has in plain edge retention over everything in that list besides LC200N makes it a solid work knife steel option for me.

At the end of the day though, it is a knife's overall design that determines if I end up keeping & using it. Edge retention, toughness & corrosion-resistance are important, no doubt, but ergonomics (and the more vague "feel in hand") end up deciding whether or not a knife becomes a "user" for me. I can always sharpen a dull or damaged edge, and I can keep corrosion at bay with a regular maintenance routine, but I can't really change my hand size & knife-use biomechanics. A knife with the best blade steel in the world is still useless if using it all day gives you a cramp.

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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby Deadboxhero » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:21 pm

Nah, I'll always pay more money for more edge Retention.

Durability?

Just beef up the edge to 30dps

Invincibility unlocked.

But that you'll get tired of the reduced cutting ability and come to the light. Just can't have it both ways.


You should give k390 a whirl
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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby Pelagic » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:53 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:21 pm
Nah, I'll always pay more money for more edge Retention.

Durability?

Just beef up the edge to 30dps

Invincibility unlocked.

But that you'll get tired of the reduced cutting ability and come to the light. Just can't have it both ways.


You should give k390 a whirl
Nah, I only use reground box cutters at 1dps/0.0001" bte, it's an absolute laser. Geometry cuts. But only a grand master knife expert like myself is capable of using it properly. The price I pay for performance......
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Are you a magician? :eek:
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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:42 pm

Guys, guys, you're taking this discussion way too seriously :p

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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby Bloke » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:17 pm

Working in an office and cutting the banding on a box of printer paper, cutting through tape to open a package, cutting the top off a satchel of porridge etc. I probably couldn’t tell the difference between Chinesey monkey metal and Maxamet.

The only time edge retention actually means anything to me personally is when I have fish to fillet, game to dress or points to put on sticks because I don’t like having to touch up knives half way through any task or even immediately after, so I greatly value steels like S90V in a fixed blade fillet and “hunting” knife and well heat treated simple tool steels in bushcraft knives.

Folding knives in exotic new steels are just something I buy to experience and sharpen because I’m a knife knut, edge junky and enjoy the challenge of sharpening. :)
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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby spyderg » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:22 pm

Totally depends on the intended use. I used to keep a zdp dragonfly on my backpack knowing I’d rarely have to sharpen it. It was for light duty stuff and wear resistance was important. I used my low hrc S35vn Sebenza to cut a bunch of metal down spout, toughness was far more important there. For my edc knife, I like somewhere in the middle, right now my Smock is filling that roll nicely.
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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby knivesandbooks » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:02 pm

I value ease of touch ups. For anything more than basic edc type things (boxes, straps, mail, thread, food, maybe some plants or wood), I prefer A2 or something tough. I hate edge damage. I wish when I was working in a warehouse type setting that I would have brought a fixed blade with a tough steel for certain applications. Instead, I beat the hell out of my s30v pm2. For edc, I prefer middle of the road. S30v, D2, XHP, s35vn, 154cm or whatever. I like 20cv as an upper level. S90v or s110v are fine but are overkill when I can get by on 1095 at this point.

I've found CPM154 to be a great in-between for toughness and edge holding.

I want more LC200n. Way more than adequate and I love the edges I get on it.
I own an assisted knife and am embarrassed to admit I enjoy it.

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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby tjsblade » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:26 pm

I like a balance between ease of touch up and holding a working edge. Ive found either M4 or Cru-wear are my preferred steels for this right now. My edc folders in either of those steels get far more pocket time then anything else in have.

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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby David R » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:55 pm

The right stones make touch ups faster. I can do ZDP or K390 in a minute or two if it's not dull and I can use one stone. If the edge is not in great shape that's a different story.

For edge retention is more about not having cut with a dull edge or stop and sharpen when I have a lot of cutting to do.

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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:59 pm

David R wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:55 pm
The right stones make touch ups faster. I can do ZDP or K390 in a minute or two if it's not dull and I can use one stone. If the edge is not in great shape that's a different story.

For edge retention is more about not having cut with a dull edge or stop and sharpen when I have a lot of cutting to do.
Both of those steels, along with CTS204P, sharpen up surprisingly quick for the level of edge retention they offer. That's one of the things that initially impressed me with all three of those steels. ZDP seems to burr incredibly little, which meant I spent very little time refining the apex.

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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby JuPaul » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:12 pm

I'm not an edge junky or a steel expert, and I'm far from an expert sharpener. Super edge retention is not nearly as important to me as toughness and ease of sharpening. I have one zdp-189 delica, and like the OP mentioned, when I carried it every day for a while I spent more time touching it up than I spend sharpening any of my softer steel knives, simply out of fear that if I let it get dull I wouldn't be able to bring it back without serious frustration. I purposefully avoid s90v, s110v and Maxamet. Cru-wear, s30v/s35vn, hap40 have all worked well for me so far, plus H1 and lc200n in certain knives. Giving m390 and 4v a shot currently.
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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby Bloke » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:45 pm

Vivi wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:59 pm
ZDP seems to burr incredibly little, which meant I spent very little time refining the apex.
I find ZDP-189 a pleasure to sharpen for the reasons you mention. It gets screaming sharp off a 220 grit SiC stone and it just gets better from there. :cool:

It was the first blade steel I got to whittling free hanging, fine hair without trying. :)
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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:16 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:53 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:21 pm
Nah, I'll always pay more money for more edge Retention.

Durability?

Just beef up the edge to 30dps

Invincibility unlocked.

But that you'll get tired of the reduced cutting ability and come to the light. Just can't have it both ways.


You should give k390 a whirl
Nah, I only use reground box cutters at 1dps/0.0001" bte, it's an absolute laser. Geometry cuts. But only a grand master knife expert like myself is capable of using it properly. The price I pay for performance......
Weird, I only use cold chisels with reground serrated edges at 90dps and 1.00" bte it's an absolute life saving tool. I can use it as an anchor to repeal off a cliff. Geometry cuts. But only a total badass like me is in hardcore situations that require such hardcore uses. The price I pay for performance....(sigh) :D
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Pelagic
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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby Pelagic » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:34 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:16 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:53 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:21 pm
Nah, I'll always pay more money for more edge Retention.

Durability?

Just beef up the edge to 30dps

Invincibility unlocked.

But that you'll get tired of the reduced cutting ability and come to the light. Just can't have it both ways.


You should give k390 a whirl
Nah, I only use reground box cutters at 1dps/0.0001" bte, it's an absolute laser. Geometry cuts. But only a grand master knife expert like myself is capable of using it properly. The price I pay for performance......
Weird, I only use cold chisels with reground serrated edges at 90dps and 1.00" bte it's an absolute life saving tool. I can use it as an anchor to repeal off a cliff. Geometry cuts. But only a total badass like me is in hardcore situations that require such hardcore uses. The price I pay for performance....(sigh) :D
Hahahahah! *fist pound*
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Deadboxhero
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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:40 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:34 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:16 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:53 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:21 pm
Nah, I'll always pay more money for more edge Retention.

Durability?

Just beef up the edge to 30dps

Invincibility unlocked.

But that you'll get tired of the reduced cutting ability and come to the light. Just can't have it both ways.


You should give k390 a whirl
Nah, I only use reground box cutters at 1dps/0.0001" bte, it's an absolute laser. Geometry cuts. But only a grand master knife expert like myself is capable of using it properly. The price I pay for performance......
Weird, I only use cold chisels with reground serrated edges at 90dps and 1.00" bte it's an absolute life saving tool. I can use it as an anchor to repeal off a cliff. Geometry cuts. But only a total badass like me is in hardcore situations that require such hardcore uses. The price I pay for performance....(sigh) :D
Hahahahah! *fist pound*
:p
Big Brown Bear
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston[/ur]
Triple B Handmade Knives

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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby Baron Mind » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:53 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:53 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:21 pm
Nah, I'll always pay more money for more edge Retention.

Durability?

Just beef up the edge to 30dps

Invincibility unlocked.

But that you'll get tired of the reduced cutting ability and come to the light. Just can't have it both ways.


You should give k390 a whirl
Nah, I only use reground box cutters at 1dps/0.0001" bte, it's an absolute laser. Geometry cuts. But only a grand master knife expert like myself is capable of using it properly. The price I pay for performance......
I just don't understand the anti perfomance crowd. You guys just like having to put a ton of extra force into your cuts? You're in it for the upper body workout?

Or you're just hung up on the concept of toughness and durability, but the thing is, most people taking this stance haven't actually tested knives by incrementally increasing the primary grind (reducing the behind the edge thickness) or incrementally decreasing the secondary grind angle (more acute edge geometry, although this is more common than the former), they just assume that the current geometries on their favorite knives are 100% optimized and that changing the primary or secondary grind angle would make them too delicate. And they are very confident about those assumptions. Then when someone like BBB comes along and actually puts in all the work and says, "hey guys, my testing has shown that you can reduce the behind the edge thickness by half, and as long as you maintain a 30 inclusive edge angle you don't lose any edge durability, but you greatly increase the cutting ability" they say "I don't think that's a good idea, I don't want to sacrifice durability".

I just don't get it.

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Pelagic
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Re: Edge retention, real use, edge damage

Postby Pelagic » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:50 pm

Baron Mind wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:53 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:53 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:21 pm
Nah, I'll always pay more money for more edge Retention.

Durability?

Just beef up the edge to 30dps

Invincibility unlocked.

But that you'll get tired of the reduced cutting ability and come to the light. Just can't have it both ways.


You should give k390 a whirl
Nah, I only use reground box cutters at 1dps/0.0001" bte, it's an absolute laser. Geometry cuts. But only a grand master knife expert like myself is capable of using it properly. The price I pay for performance......
I just don't understand the anti perfomance crowd. You guys just like having to put a ton of extra force into your cuts? You're in it for the upper body workout?

Or you're just hung up on the concept of toughness and durability, but the thing is, most people taking this stance haven't actually tested knives by incrementally increasing the primary grind (reducing the behind the edge thickness) or incrementally decreasing the secondary grind angle (more acute edge geometry, although this is more common than the former), they just assume that the current geometries on their favorite knives are 100% optimized and that changing the primary or secondary grind angle would make them too delicate. And they are very confident about those assumptions. Then when someone like BBB comes along and actually puts in all the work and says, "hey guys, my testing has shown that you can reduce the behind the edge thickness by half, and as long as you maintain a 30 inclusive edge angle you don't lose any edge durability, but you greatly increase the cutting ability" they say "I don't think that's a good idea, I don't want to sacrifice durability".

I just don't get it.
You're right Haha, you don't get it. I wasn't making fun of the performance crowd. I was mildly poking fun at Shawn's posts (which may seem repetitive to some,but I'm glad he hammers in the knowledge on the community, because in all honesty, it's necessary) and he responded perfectly and I gave him respect. I actually really value performance, trust me. I'm a sharpener and I've been doing it for over 25 years. And yes, I actually have noticed that high end kitchen knives perform well. I just don't feel EVERY folder should be ground that way. So if that puts me in the group "hung up on toughness and durability", I'm fine with that.

Maybe that clears my joke post up.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?


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