Spyderco Supergold, Superblue ? VG10

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Hello all I was wondering if someone could explain the different Japanese Supers and why they matter or what qualities make them desirable.

IE: Supergold I guess is top banana, the best then followed by

Superblue

Super white? Is this not VG10?

Where do zsp189 and Hap 40 fit in here?

Thanks.

[Mushroom]

If I recall correctly, the color in the name comes from Japanese tradition and is only a reference to the color of the paper that the raw steel would traditionally come wrapped in from the Hitachi factory.

There is certainly a difference in steel chemistry, but I’m am not knowledgeable enough to help with that subject. My apologies. :o

[Pancake]

Supergold, Super Blue and White are very, VERY different steels.

White (No. 1, 2 and 3) is a pure carbon steel. Nothing but iron, carbon, bit of Mn. Its very freaking pure, minimal amount of P, S. It can go very hard, but there is very little of carbides, so it can take extreeeeeeeeeemly fine edge, but it will not hold it very long.

Super Blue - Similar to White, but with added W, Cr (mainly for hardenability) and V. Added benefit is that now you have some hard tungsten carbides and it will edge longer then White steel, but you cant sharpen it as fine as White. (but I still think that normal user cant tell a difference is edge crispness).

Supergold - STAINLESS powder metallurgy steel. Should be a very good performer, it has 2 % of V, that is always welcome for edge retention and it can go up to mid 60 HRC.

Never heard of Super White........

EDIT:
ZDP 189 is above everything is edge retention. Its stainless (but not rustproof) PM steel with crazy amount of chromium carbides and it can go to like 64 HRC.

HAP 40 is a high speed steel, not stainless, also a very good performer.

Main issue with all of these steels that they very hard/impossible to get outside Japan. Japan dont really want to sell their steel to other countries, but you can always find a very similar steel to these.
Like I dont want to smart..s who knows everything and I hope that people with far more knowledge come here, but I think that a average/above average user cant tell a difference between White steel and 1095 both at same HRC (or like Super Blue and O7/F2)

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Thanks mushroom that is all I could recall as well.

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Thanks Pancake not sure I heard of super white either but have some idea false perhaps that Sal referred to VG10 probably misread something.

What has been your experience using these steels how would they compare to let’s say Cruwear or VG10?

[Sharp Guy]

I have a hard time with it all too. All I know is they all get sharp haha

Found this while searching for info...

https://japanesechefsknife.com/pages/pr ... sknife-com

[Pancake]

Oh yeah just to be clear, I dont have personal experience with these steels. These are all information that you can find on internet and forums. I hope someone like BBB come here.

[bearfacedkiller]

I own all of them. The white steels are basic carbon steels like our 01, 1095 or 52100. The blue steels have a little more alloy (tungsten and vanadium) content so they have a little more wear resistance. We don’t really use their equivalents but 07 is an example. We need more knives in 07. Super Gold is a powdered stainless steel enriched with vanadium. It is also called R2. It should fall somewhere between XHP and S30V in performance. ZDP is a crazy high alloy monster capable of high hardness. It is crazy but achieves this with very high carbon and very high chromium as opposed to our domestic Uber steels like S90V and S110V which have lots of vanadium. There is no domestic equivalent to ZDP.

Check out zknives.com which is a great site for comparing steels.

[bearfacedkiller]

Vg10 is a basic stainless ingot steel. Similar to 154CM or N690.

HAP40 is a high speed tool steel designed for use in high heat manufacturing. It has high cobalt for high hardness when very very hot. Rex45 is our domestic equivalent.

[Skywalker]

Continuing the analogue steel notes -

Supergold/SG2/R2 is also known as 3G by Fallkniven. Personally I like it in kitchen knives but have never used it in anything else.

HAP40 is almost identical to CPM REX 45 with REX 45 having a small amount of Manganese and Silicon that HAP40 does not. From my experience with HAP40 - not stainless, sharpens up very nicely, happy to take a pretty toothy edge and thin angles. I think I reprofiled my Delica to around 26 deg on a 320 grit Shapton and then microbeveled with the brown sharpmaker rods at 30 deg - very nice as long as I don't cut an apple and forget to rinse it for a few hours.

HAP40/REX 45 are also pretty similar in composition to CPM M4, with the exception of a large amount of Cobalt in HAP40/REX 45 that M4 doesn't have. Comparing sharpening and using my HAP40 Delica and CPM M4 Bradley 1 and 2 folders, though, I think Spyderco might run M4 a little harder. I'd be curious if that's true of CPM REX 45 models as well or if Golden kept them closer to M4 in hardness.

[The Meat man]

I'd be curious if that's true of CPM REX 45 models as well or if Golden kept them closer to M4 in hardness.

Spyderco's CPM REX 45 has been consistently measured at around 66 HRC I believe. Considerably higher than their CPM M4.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83847

[Deadboxhero]

There is no "Super White"

Just White #1 at the highest for white steel.

On a side note,
26C3 is an interesting slightly alloyed analog to white #1

It has a little chromium added like a "dash of spice" to improve the quenching rate (hardenability) to work better with fast quenching oils over water which is safer.

Hence why Devin Thomas calls it "Spicy White"

I love the Spicy White stuff more, it is better suited to my heat treatment than white 1.

Alright, back to White vs Blue vs Gold
Here is my user experiences with these steels

Hitachi White #1 (Shirogami /White Paper) steel = finest structure of the three, best sharpening, takes a very keen edge, deburrs like a god at high hardness. Gets very crispy and holds the front end sharpeness like a champ, working edge endurance is not as good as the higher alloy higher carbide steels. Everything is Trade offs of course. It will rust before your eyes but takes a wonderful patina. I find it is second only to Nitrobe77 at sharpenablity.

Hitachi Super Blue(Aogami/Blue paper) steel= good sharpening, takes a sticky edge and has more Slicing endurance than white 1. Super blue is the Pinnacle of edge freak lust. The added Carbides over white steel give the edge more aggression yet not at the cost of too much Stability. When feeling a crispy edge it sticks to your fingers thanks to the additional Carbide volume poking out at a well shaped apex hence "sticky" sharp.
Although slightly less reactive on paper, in my personal experience it rusts just as quickly as white #1 yet also takes a beautiful patina when kept dry.


Takefu "Supergold" (aka SG2/SGPS, Kobelco R2 and Fallkniven 3G lam.) = Stainless, good sharpening, better it seems than simliar western steels like S30v/S35VN also is run harder with production compaines. Doesn't sharpen as easy as white or blue. It will take the best edge with higher end abrasives otherwise it will underperform what it's capable of. SG2 also takes a more aggressive edge than white and blue. Will keep a slicing edge with the more endurance than compared to blue and white in controlled settings. Not as prone to rusting but not as Stable at the edge due to the carbide volume, HRC does not get as hard also due to being stainless and the balance of C and Cr. Can be alot more prone to chipping especially depending on HT, not the HRC but the microstructure created at the given HRC

I personally don't use white, blue and gold for my handmade knives, I prefer comparable steels such as

Spicy white 26C3
Deutsch Über Blau 1.2562
CTS XHP.

I find these fill the same role but are superior for my work.

[bearfacedkiller]

Is 1.2562 the same as O7? Why don’t makers here in the US use O7?

[Deadboxhero]

Rex 45 vs M4 in spyderco knives (Not what is possible with custom HT)


The Rex 45 from Spyderco has the stonger apex and has more Stability. It takes a less aggressive edge that is more on the keen side. It holds the front end, hair shaving sharpeness better than M4 and is less prone to rolling and microchipping at the edge. Rex 45 has more edge Stability.

The M4 from Spyderco takes a more aggressive, stickier edge and touches up nicely with honing but is softer and needs more frequent touch ups to maintain the high sharpeness. With raw cutting endurance the M4 will cut longer in controlled slice cut testing. With shock/impact the blade will be less likely to break but the edge will still take damage. With compressive forces the edge is weaker and a fine apex is more likey to roll. The extra carbide volume and lower hardness matrix reduce the Stability at the apex. More prone to microchipping at the edge with lateral torquing cuts.

Both will rust.

Rex 45 is less reactive and less prone.

[Deadboxhero]

Is 1.2562 the same as O7? Why don’t makers here in the US use O7?

There is also F2

It just doesn't serve a lucrative process nor demand.

Knives are not very lucrative in the big picture.

I got a couple pieces of 1.2562 so I am happy.

[Skywalker]

I'd be curious if that's true of CPM REX 45 models as well or if Golden kept them closer to M4 in hardness.

Spyderco's CPM REX 45 has been consistently measured at around 66 HRC I believe. Considerably higher than their CPM M4.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83847

Perfect, don't know how I forgot about that thread. Thanks!

[Pancake]

There is also F2

It just doesn't serve a lucrative process nor demand.

Knives are not very lucrative in the big picture.

I got a couple pieces of 1.2562 so I am happy.

Well, that 2562 looks very nice, on a nice thin geometry could do very well.
I just found out that I can buy it in Germany.....dang...Is it hard to HT?

[Deadboxhero]

There is also F2

It just doesn't serve a lucrative process nor demand.

Knives are not very lucrative in the big picture.

I got a couple pieces of 1.2562 so I am happy.

Well, that 2562 looks very nice, on a nice thin geometry could do very well.
I just found out that I can buy it in Germany.....dang...Is it hard to HT?

I don't recommend heat treating that steel if you don't have good temperture control and fast quenchent. Liquid Nitrogen is also something I feel gives this steel additional performance for thin cutting Geometry but only if the times and temps with Austenizing, tempering and quenching execution are done properly.

[Pancake]

I don't recommend heat treating that steel if you don't have good temperture control and fast quenchents.

Well eventually I would send it to HT.
But I think it may be a bit too much for me....I could go also for 1.2419 which is also a tungsten alloyed tool steel.

[Deadboxhero]

I don't recommend heat treating that steel if you don't have good temperture control and fast quenchents.

Well eventually I would send it to HT.
But I think it may be a bit too much for me....I could go also for 1.2419 which is also a tungsten alloyed tool steel.

There are other forums that can go into that in more detail