Community Sharpening Journal

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Chris_P_Bacon
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Chris_P_Bacon » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:03 pm

Honestly, ever since I've gotten the diamond bench stones, I rarely touch the shaptons.

With shapton pros, (or glass) you can certainly sharpen a knife on either, they work. But with the variety of steels we have today, some containing large amounts of vanadium, I feel the newer abrasives with diamond and/or CBN is the better path (for my uses anyway), and if for no other reason, faster.

Long ago, when I first purchased those shaptons, abrasives weren't really at the level they are today.

The better question is, vitrified, bonded, or metallic?

I don't know how important your time is to you, but I will say, lately I'm experimenting less with sharpening, I Still go at it with patience, but I want to get it done as quickly/efficiently as possible.

Diamond (or CBN) speeds up the process (over old tech).
8x3 (or bigger) = more surface area (gets the job done quicker)
Practical Sharpening Vitrified will most likely be my next purchase, fastest cutting, but the trade off is it can dish over time, so needs an occasional flattening, no biggie.
Currently have 147 :spyder: 's in 40 different steels.
Bench Stones Atoma Diamond Plate 140,400,600,1200. Naniwa Chosera 400,800,1000,3000,5000.
Shapton Glass 1000,6000. Suehiro Rika 5000. Shapton Pro 320,1000,2000,5000,8000.
Naniwa Bonded Diamond 400,600,800,1000,3000,6000. Venev Gen2 OCB Combo Diamond 800/1200.
Spyderco 8x3 UF 306UF. Doublestuff 303FCBN2
Want List Steels 9V, 15V, K490, M398, S125V, S390, SRS-15, Vanax SC, Vancron SC

Chris_P_Bacon
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Location: Florida

Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Chris_P_Bacon » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:23 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:58 pm
Despite all theories S30V does not require Diamonds far from it. In fact I am now a great lover of S30V until now I lacked tools and education.
I agree that S30V is not exactly considered high vanadium, and is rather easy to sharpen. Honestly if you don't plan to sharpen what I would consider extreme steels like Rex 121, maxamet, or any 3% vanadium or higher steels, shaptons will serve you well.

Not saying you can't sharpen 3% or greater vanadium on old tech stones, it's just not the path I chose for myself :rolleyes:

I'll say it all like this, had the vitrified diamond been available back then, and I had bought it from jump street, there would of been no reason for me to buy a lesser grade abrasive, which would of saved me a boat load of money in the end.

check this out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vypKcQYOaxo
Last edited by Chris_P_Bacon on Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Currently have 147 :spyder: 's in 40 different steels.
Bench Stones Atoma Diamond Plate 140,400,600,1200. Naniwa Chosera 400,800,1000,3000,5000.
Shapton Glass 1000,6000. Suehiro Rika 5000. Shapton Pro 320,1000,2000,5000,8000.
Naniwa Bonded Diamond 400,600,800,1000,3000,6000. Venev Gen2 OCB Combo Diamond 800/1200.
Spyderco 8x3 UF 306UF. Doublestuff 303FCBN2
Want List Steels 9V, 15V, K490, M398, S125V, S390, SRS-15, Vanax SC, Vancron SC

Chris_P_Bacon
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Location: Florida

Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Chris_P_Bacon » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:41 pm

When you watch Murray vids consider what he's sharpening, steels like super blue don't require anything special to sharpen.

Are you planning on sharpening k390, 10v, maxamet, and the likes?

If so, watching vids by guys who are actually sharpening that class of steels, may serve you better in the long run.


Here's some more vids that may help
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWiealnK4Y8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsD33kmLDSI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVWrrCvT6ww
Last edited by Chris_P_Bacon on Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Currently have 147 :spyder: 's in 40 different steels.
Bench Stones Atoma Diamond Plate 140,400,600,1200. Naniwa Chosera 400,800,1000,3000,5000.
Shapton Glass 1000,6000. Suehiro Rika 5000. Shapton Pro 320,1000,2000,5000,8000.
Naniwa Bonded Diamond 400,600,800,1000,3000,6000. Venev Gen2 OCB Combo Diamond 800/1200.
Spyderco 8x3 UF 306UF. Doublestuff 303FCBN2
Want List Steels 9V, 15V, K490, M398, S125V, S390, SRS-15, Vanax SC, Vancron SC

AccountDeletedUserRequest
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:21 pm

Chris_P_Bacon wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:03 pm
Honestly, ever since I've gotten the diamond bench stones, I rarely touch the shaptons.

With shapton pros, (or glass) you can certainly sharpen a knife on either, they work. But with the variety of steels we have today, some containing large amounts of vanadium, I feel the newer abrasives with diamond and/or CBN is the better path (for my uses anyway), and if for no other reason, faster.

Long ago, when I first purchased those shaptons, abrasives weren't really at the level they are today.

The better question is, vitrified, bonded, or metallic?

I don't know how important your time is to you, but I will say, lately I'm experimenting less with sharpening, I Still go at it with patience, but I want to get it done as quickly/efficiently as possible.

Diamond (or CBN) speeds up the process (over old tech).
8x3 (or bigger) = more surface area (gets the job done quicker)
Practical Sharpening Vitrified will most likely be my next purchase, fastest cutting, but the trade off is it can dish over time, so needs an occasional flattening, no biggie.
This is how I see it. I've moved away from traditional stones, the sharpmaker and strops largely to save time.

Old process was DMT XC to reprofile, DMT Fine to polish, Spyderco fine rods to polish some more, Spyderco UF rods to cut a microbevel, followed by stropping to refine it.

This gave me a very crisp, polished edge that push cut well and whittled hairs. But that type of edge didn't last terribly long for an EDC utility knife.

First I stopped polishing bevels. Figured they don't influence cutting so why bother?

Then I replaced the sharpmaker rods with their wider benchstones.

Then I stopped stropping and forced myself to improve my technique enough to get similar results.

Then I stopped using the fine and UF stones and forced myself to learn how to get hair whittling sharpness straight off a Spyderco Medium stone.

Which is where I'm at now. I shape bevels with the XC DMT, get shaving sharp edges right off of it, then refine them to hair popping sharp on the Spyderco Medium stone.

Some knives just get the first step and nothing else.

These coarser edges are cutting better for me and this simplified process lets me sharpen multiple knives in the same amount of time one used to take. Much less time spent setting stuff up and breaking it down, less money spent.

Sometime soon I'm going to order coarser stone for finishing my edges. The medium stone feels a little too polished after using the DMT XC edges. I'd like something between them.

Chris_P_Bacon
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Chris_P_Bacon » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:48 pm

I like coated stones for some toothy applications, repair work, and re-profiling. However the feedback from coated also leaves a lot to be desired, also grates on me like finger nails on a chalk board.

Have some kitchen knives that I wouldn't even dream of putting on that rough coated surface, but on bonded it's heavenly comparatively.

Hoping vitrified feels just as good if not better than bonded. To each his own though, different strokes for different folks.

Lots of ways to skin a cat.
Currently have 147 :spyder: 's in 40 different steels.
Bench Stones Atoma Diamond Plate 140,400,600,1200. Naniwa Chosera 400,800,1000,3000,5000.
Shapton Glass 1000,6000. Suehiro Rika 5000. Shapton Pro 320,1000,2000,5000,8000.
Naniwa Bonded Diamond 400,600,800,1000,3000,6000. Venev Gen2 OCB Combo Diamond 800/1200.
Spyderco 8x3 UF 306UF. Doublestuff 303FCBN2
Want List Steels 9V, 15V, K490, M398, S125V, S390, SRS-15, Vanax SC, Vancron SC

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p_atrick
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby p_atrick » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:58 am

Vivi wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:21 pm
Sometime soon I'm going to order coarser stone for finishing my edges.
Have you found a steel or family of steels that don't do as well with a coarser edge?

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:27 am

Thanks for all the info Chris_P_Bacon (Lol love that name BTW)

I have the Atoma plates for harder steels but have to say I do not care for the way diamond trails screw up the finish of blades which I have had happen with the wicked edge pro3 and the Hapstone7 and the Atoma plates. Nor am I going to dry sharpen and inhale all that garbage.

Heck I got to the point of coating blades in finger nail polish just to prevent this. I have no dobt this is why some very prominent figures decry the use of diamonds their dust and slurry is damaging.

As far as time goes with just thinning the secondary edge and flipping a bur on S30V the Kingstones take no more time that the Atomas do.

For repair though getting rid of chips I will go diamond every time and have to coat the flats to protect them as I have on a CTS-204P military project that is coming into rotation, Red fingernail polish and blue tape knife removed from the handle to keep diamond crap out of the pivot ughh it is a sight. :)

I have no intention of going beyond S90V or S110V so I should be okay. Yes I am aware Murray Carter is working with low carbide steels mostly Japanese white Is it Number 1 or Number 2 ? I am also aware he hates the idea of sharpening ZDP-189 etc....

Honestly he makes good points as to why and I agree part of a premium knife is the ability to easily sharpen it to a scary sharp edge using two very basic water stones.

We are not limiting ourselves to a tradition the way he does in order to sell his brand and his tradition.

He is the professional we are hobbyist for the most part so what we do for fun he earns a living from IE: Sharpening and he of course has my utmost respect as all makers do. Taking raw elements and making them into knives, very cool.

What I would be interested in is water stones that can handle S90V and S110V and would like to get away from Diamond altogether except for fast repair of chips perhaps.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:21 pm

Ok here are the pictures from last nights sharpening I am not perfect with freehand as far as making things pretty guess that will come with practice but sharp is good enough for me :)

Re-posted content for the sake of saving people from having to hop back a page and find it:

Chris_P_Bacon wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:39 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:11 pm
In my ongoing journey I have arrived at the shapeton waterstones.

Does anyone have experience with them and willing to share some tips and tricks?

Seems to me you can jump allot of grits with water stones like Murray Carter does going from 1000 to 6000.
Arrived? Meaning you're considering, or have already pulled the trigger?
Meaning considering and researching.

Tonight I sharpened 3 knives.

My ladies Chicago cutlery soft steel chef knife

My Manix XL DLC in S30V

My Buck 110 hunter custom IN 440C

On all 3 I used Murray Carters technique and his 1000 king stone and 6000 king stone I purchased from him with the training DVD’s of his.

While still a novice free hand sharpener my result are incredibly sharp.

I will never go back to guided systems. Tomorrow will post the before and after pics.

Despite all theories S30V does not require Diamonds far from it. In fact I am now a great lover of S30V until now I lacked tools and education.

I have both thanks to Murray Carter and that used Manix XL in DLC is sharper than I can believe.

It takes just a bit more effort to take down the secondary adage and flip the burr compared to 440C but not by much at all.

Set UP:

Image

Image

Here are the before images:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

After the 1000 Grit King Stone:

Image

Image

Image

After 6000 King Stone

Image

Image

Image

Image

AccountDeletedUserRequest
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:38 pm

p_atrick wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:58 am
Vivi wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:21 pm
Sometime soon I'm going to order coarser stone for finishing my edges.
Have you found a steel or family of steels that don't do as well with a coarser edge?
No.

It's something I've been thinking about this year.

You hear a lot about how X steel likes a toothy edge, X steel likes a polished edge.

I started running toothy edges on steels a lot of people tend to run polished....lower edge retention simple steels like 440C, 1095, AEBL, BD1, PE H1. I was seeing if I could eek out more edge retention from my PE Pacific Salt mainly, since I liked it as a worke beater but didn't like the edge retention with an UF finish.

Since then I haven't tried the lower grit edges on a steel and come away with a bad impression.

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Pelagic
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Pelagic » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:47 pm

Vivi wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:38 pm
p_atrick wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:58 am
Vivi wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:21 pm
Sometime soon I'm going to order coarser stone for finishing my edges.
Have you found a steel or family of steels that don't do as well with a coarser edge?
No.

It's something I've been thinking about this year.

You hear a lot about how X steel likes a toothy edge, X steel likes a polished edge.

I started running toothy edges on steels a lot of people tend to run polished....lower edge retention simple steels like 440C, 1095, AEBL, BD1, PE H1. I was seeing if I could eek out more edge retention from my PE Pacific Salt mainly, since I liked it as a worke beater but didn't like the edge retention with an UF finish.

Since then I haven't tried the lower grit edges on a steel and come away with a bad impression.
This is exactly why I don't obsess over carbides. Yes they improve edge retention and I really like that, but they have very little influence on the finish I use.

Doewhatever, you're becoming a pro! Haha. Nice work. It's all about repetition. I cannot believe how lazy the sharpener was who sharpened that Manix from the factory... the edge stops 2mm short of the Ricasso.

Where did you get your Atoma plates? I went to Amazon and checked some reviews on the Atoma 400, and there are some recent bad ones saying that the quality is poor. One guy said after many years his Atoma wore out and it was time to replace it. And the new one he got was NOT the same and wore out after 2 knives. Another review said something similar. I'm guessing that is most likely just from a shady Amazon seller though. Where did you buy from and how much $$? Thanks
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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bbturbodad
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby bbturbodad » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:30 pm

Chris_P_Bacon wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:23 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:58 pm
Despite all theories S30V does not require Diamonds far from it. In fact I am now a great lover of S30V until now I lacked tools and education.
I agree that S30V is not exactly considered high vanadium, and is rather easy to sharpen. Honestly if you don't plan to sharpen what I would consider extreme steels like Rex 121, maxamet, or any 3% vanadium or higher steels, shaptons will serve you well.

Not saying you can't sharpen 3% or greater vanadium on old tech stones, it's just not the path I chose for myself :rolleyes:

I'll say it all like this, had the vitrified diamond been available back then, and I had bought it from jump street, there would of been no reason for me to buy a lesser grade abrasive, which would of saved me a boat load of money in the end.

check this out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vypKcQYOaxo
I'm in the same camp as Chris, I prefer and use diamond abrasives almost exclusively now. That's why I thought it was interesting that over the weekend while chatting with Roman about sharpening one of his knives (Nitrobe77 @ 63-64 HRC) he recommended I use my ceramic stones because he prefers the feedback vs. the Venev stones. Personally I don't mind the way the Venev stones feel and am willing to trade the feedback for less time on the stone as I feel it gives me a healthier longer lasting edge.
-Turbo

Chris_P_Bacon
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Chris_P_Bacon » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:21 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:27 am
Thanks for all the info Chris_P_Bacon (Lol love that name BTW)
Hope it helped, at least some :D

The idea for the name was from a silly youtube video,

here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tP7Xrrxfxc

I do love me some bacon though :p
Currently have 147 :spyder: 's in 40 different steels.
Bench Stones Atoma Diamond Plate 140,400,600,1200. Naniwa Chosera 400,800,1000,3000,5000.
Shapton Glass 1000,6000. Suehiro Rika 5000. Shapton Pro 320,1000,2000,5000,8000.
Naniwa Bonded Diamond 400,600,800,1000,3000,6000. Venev Gen2 OCB Combo Diamond 800/1200.
Spyderco 8x3 UF 306UF. Doublestuff 303FCBN2
Want List Steels 9V, 15V, K490, M398, S125V, S390, SRS-15, Vanax SC, Vancron SC

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:42 pm

@Pelagic

Excellent company have purchased from twice, went with them due to the same issues you saw concerning Atoma:

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/search-r ... knivestogo

The best way to describe them is as diamond files.

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Cambertree
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Cambertree » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:12 am

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:23 am
Interesting what you are saying about the 140 is this an issue once they have broken in?

Have to admit I like the feedback from the King Waterstone better.

The Atoma 140 was used for swift material removal and it certainly did. I probably could have started with the 400 and stopped at 600 then went to paste but wanted to break the Diamonds in some more.

...

Little knives are more difficult than large ones I have found that to be true even with guided systems.
I've been enjoying reading your sharpening journey reports, Doeswhatever.

Loose particles occur when breaking in all coated diamond and CBN plates, not just the Atoma 140s. I wouldn't say it's so much of an issue, really.

The challenge I referred to in using the Atoma 140 plate, is that, while it is wonderfully quick to thin out edges with, a moments inattention in maintaining your consistent angle or allowing the blade to run off the edge of the stone will leave those trailing gouges up the side of your blade flats.

So for me it presents a challenge in a good way, in that I like the precision and focus it demands. I imagine the DMT XC and XXC are somewhat similar.

When I first got into learning about sharpening I tended to spend my money on medium and finer finishing stones, figuring they would give me more margin for error, and that I would get the same results as a coarse stone if I just used more passes.

Now I'm the opposite, in that I probably spend 80% of my sharpening time on the Atoma 140. Then I just clean up and refine the bevels with the finer Atomas and the Venev OCBs. Depending on the steel, I sometimes like to finish on the Spyderco UF benchstone. I go quite a bit thinner than 15dps, so I get a lot of quick, convenient resharpenings with the Sharpmaker, before I have to go back to the benchstones.

I agree that there's little utility in polished bevels, however I personally do like to spend a bit of time on the initial sharpening. It's an enjoyable exercise for me, so I don't mind putting in the effort to achieve a clean, polished finish that complements a good quality knife. There is a marginal benefit in corrosion resistance and smooth cutting too, but it's mainly for aesthetic satisfaction.

As Baron Mind said - sharp, healthy edges first and foremost, then looks come last.

Like most of the other sharpeners here, I like to restore a very sharp edge as quickly as possible, hence the Sharpmaker touchups.

Yes, sharpening small blades evenly, like the secondary blades on small traditional knives can be a good test of skill.

Regarding the Shaptons, I only own one 5000 grit Shapton ceramic. In Japan, the Shapton waterstones and ceramics are seen as a fairly basic workhorse stone line.

The Shapton Glass line seems to be popular.

The Naniwa Choseras/Professional line are what I would recommend for alumina waterstones with excellent feedback and abrasive density and finish.

The Sigma Power Select series are interesting vitrified waterstones designed for high speed tool steels and high carbide PM steels, which you don't hear much about these days. I believe they are predominantly SiC abrasive.

Steels do benefit from being matched with the right abrasives though. Sure you can sharpen Maxamet on a brick I suppose, given enough time and good technique, but it's just much quicker and more efficient to use diamonds/CBN or SiC.

The extra time and passes and excess pressure required to sharpen high carbide steels on alumina abrasives can sometimes cause fatigue at the fine apex level too, as you have noted.

Like using different knife steels for different tasks, I think different abrasives are definitely suited for certain steels.

I only really use the alumina waterstones these days for simple carbon steels and stainlesses like VG10. The Atomas and Venevs get the lions share of the work. I'm excited to try the new vitrified CBN stones that are coming out.

Vivi, I woudn't put too much credence in those kind of comments. As you said, they're probably dealing with counterfeits, or are shills or trolls. I'm not going to say that the Atomas are better than DMTs as I haven't tried the DMTs, but they are both high quality, long lasting products, made by companies who know what they are doing. There's plenty of good sharpeners out there who vouch for them. They're not the gold standard of Japanese coated diamond stones without reason.

Chris P. Bacon, I was just reading your sig line. Nice stone collection. Can you give us your thoughts comparing the bonded diamond Naniwas vs. the Venev OCB stones in feedback, cutting effectiveness and scratch pattern consistency and finish? Thanks.

GarageBoy
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby GarageBoy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:45 am

I do notice gritomatic suggesting that you lap their bonded diamond stones - how does one do that and why is it needed?

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:05 pm

GarageBoy wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:45 am
I do notice gritomatic suggesting that you lap their bonded diamond stones - how does one do that and why is it needed?
It is needed to even them out I am guessing due to the resin the diamonds are embedded in. I purchased a kit from them and in it are different grades of Silicone Carbide powders that you place on a glass plate and then lap IE: rub the stones across to even them out.

Different SIC Powders for different grit of stone.

Honestly the kit is brand new and I probably need to sell it as they are not available any longer through Gritomatic the last time I looked and I am not going to use stones that I purchased because of this. Lol looks like I need to sell the stones as well.

As for the hapstone 7 it is a great guided system and I am considering buying the Atoma plates that are lase cut and mounted to Aluminum blaks to fit it.

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Pelagic
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Pelagic » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:49 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:42 pm
@Pelagic

Excellent company have purchased from twice, went with them due to the same issues you saw concerning Atoma:

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/search-r ... knivestogo

The best way to describe them is as diamond files.
Thanks. I was debating over picking up a 400, but they're out of stock.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:21 pm

Aww man what a bummer! The 400 is very good probably the most useful. I am sure they will get more back in stock, if you wait for them you will at-least get a genuine product the stuff on Amazon is sketchy and forget about the bay.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:53 pm

Thanks Cambertree appreciate all your suggestions and advice.

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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:38 pm

I did some work on my Street Beat today.

It came a little thick for my liking. I had thinned out the back bevel on my DMT previously, but had not completely reset the apex until today.

I had been sharpening it on my medium stone, but I wanted a toothier edge. I went with a DMT XC finish, same as I did with the Manix XL.

Here's some photos:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Whenever it needs touched up I'm going to try using my coarse DMT:

Image

I came across it when I was looking through an old box of camping gear.

Here's a video I shot showing some cutting and sharpening with the Street Beat:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=qaOt85ONLGQ


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