POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.

Caribbean(-like) BACKLOCK knife (edge all the way back to the handle, wide and neutral handle..)?

- No, I am not interested in such a (backlock-) model
20
30%
- Yes, I´d like to see such a model in linered G10
10
15%
- yes, I´d like to see such a model in linerless G10
12
18%
- Yes, I´d like to see such a model in linered FRN
6
9%
- Yes, I´d like to see such a model in linerless FRN
15
23%
- Yes, I´d like to see such a model in another handle configuration (specify, if you like)
3
5%
 
Total votes: 66

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steelcity16
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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby steelcity16 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:58 am

Wartstein wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:52 am
wrdwrght wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:46 am
Just as I think not every Spydie model should become a Salt, I don’t think every one should feature a lockback, much as I like that lock.

I’m quite content to let Sal and Eric call the shots. I could say more, but won’t...

Not EVERY Spydie model needs a lockback, but at least ONE SINGLE backlock knife in the Endura / Caribbean size class and in a decent steel, but still affordable, should have an edge going all the way back to the handle (and no choil or Ricasso)...

Agreed, there is a gap in the lineup and I think this would be a winner. The Tenacious is extremely popular for a reason. There are plenty of value folders, but the ergos, blade shape, and most importantly the choil-less design really are perfect. It is one of my most favorite knives of all time. I just don't carry it because I carry FRN knives almost exclusively these days. But any new choil-less knives, especially in FRN/FRCP, especially with a backlock, and ESPECIALLY in Salt form have my attention (and more importantly...my money!). :)
:spyder: Enjoys long walks on the beach with rustproof lightweight folding knives. Must love Boye Dents and deep carry wire clips. :spyder:

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Vivi » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:27 pm

steelcity16 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:45 am
Vivi wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:35 am

If cost and engineering weren't an issue I'd love to see the cutting edge on choil less backlocks extended, and switch them over to internal stop pins. The Pacific Salt would be even better with another 1/2" of cutting edge. I know one user in particular that could get on board with this idea :D

I agree, and I know you like H1 and i do too, but I would love a Pacific Salt with FFG LC200N with a full length cutting edge. I'd get both SE and PE versions.
I'm definitely in for at least a PE whenever they come out, more for the FFG than extra edge holding. If they run them in SE too I'll get one to compare to my EDC.

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby steelcity16 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:40 pm

Vivi wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:27 pm
steelcity16 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:45 am
Vivi wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:35 am

If cost and engineering weren't an issue I'd love to see the cutting edge on choil less backlocks extended, and switch them over to internal stop pins. The Pacific Salt would be even better with another 1/2" of cutting edge. I know one user in particular that could get on board with this idea :D

I agree, and I know you like H1 and i do too, but I would love a Pacific Salt with FFG LC200N with a full length cutting edge. I'd get both SE and PE versions.
I'm definitely in for at least a PE whenever they come out, more for the FFG than extra edge holding. If they run them in SE too I'll get one to compare to my EDC.

Yep, this pretty much echos my thoughts on the LC vs H1 matter. I'd want the PE LC for the FFG, and I'd buy an SE FFG LC to compare to my gold standard SE H1. I also find the PE H1 edge holding more than adequate for my use.
:spyder: Enjoys long walks on the beach with rustproof lightweight folding knives. Must love Boye Dents and deep carry wire clips. :spyder:

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:11 pm

I predicted the outcome of this poll near perfectly before casting my vote for liner'd g10. Linerless plastic wins the popularity contest every time. One day g10 will be a thing of the past; simply an occasional sprint run. I think a backlock Caribbean woukd be amazing.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Pancake » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:11 pm
I predicted the outcome of this poll near perfectly before casting my vote for liner'd g10. Linerless plastic wins the popularity contest every time. One day g10 will be a thing of the past; simply an occasional sprint run. I think a backlock Caribbean woukd be amazing.
Are you a magician? :eek:

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:26 pm

Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:11 pm
I predicted the outcome of this poll near perfectly before casting my vote for liner'd g10. Linerless plastic wins the popularity contest every time. One day g10 will be a thing of the past; simply an occasional sprint run. I think a backlock Caribbean woukd be amazing.
Are you a magician? :eek:
Close.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Evil D » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:06 am

Pelagic wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:11 pm
I predicted the outcome of this poll near perfectly before casting my vote for liner'd g10. Linerless plastic wins the popularity contest every time. One day g10 will be a thing of the past; simply an occasional sprint run. I think a backlock Caribbean woukd be amazing.


I'm sure there was a time when people thought micarta would be in production forever. I think G10 will always have a place though, especially in new knives. It's significantly cheaper to bring out a new model in G10 than to invest in FRN molds. I don't see FRN/lightweights as a replacement for G10, they're more of an alternative option.
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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Doc Dan » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:21 am

A backlock Caribbean would be the answer for those of us who’d like a Manix 2 XL Salt.
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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Wartstein » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:32 am

Doc Dan wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:21 am
A backlock Caribbean would be the answer for those of us who’d like a Manix 2 XL Salt.
I am not so sure about this. Guess I'd like both models a lot, but they would be quite different in some aspects, right?
- backlock vs CBBL (my two favorites by far, but still quite different in use)
- both handles very ergonomic, but one rather "neutral", the other much more shaped to fit the hand (which can be both a plus or minus)
- and first and foremost: Quite large choil vs absolutely NO choil or Ricasso, but an edge all the way back to the handle (unique for a Spydie in that "class")
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Wartstein » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:27 am

Thinking about this thread I started and reading some of the comments, I just want to point out once more (and maybe that´s a (general) topic for another thread or poll):

I no way this is about to "turning every folder into a backlock" or "to get every folder in a backlock version additionally to the existing version with another lock", BUT:

Think about it:

There are roughly said 4 main categories of Spyderco-locks: Backlock, Comp. lock. Liner-/Frame-lock, (C)BBL.

As far as I see and understand, the CBBL requires some choil in the blade, cause the lock itself takes up a lot of space in the handle, so a no choil - version is probably not a choice here anyway.
But both linerlock and now comp. lock Spyders have as well "choil-/ricasso-versions" PLUS "no choil-edge all the way back to the handle"-versions.
Backlock knives not, except the Centofante. But that one is a quite specialized knife, with its thin hollow grind and furthermore it does not feature the most evolved version of a backlock knife with edge all the way back to the handle, which would be a stop pin.

So: If you see it that way, I think it gets more understandable maybe, why some want also an all around, larger backlock knife with a maximum edge length.
And the stop pin backlock has proven itself to be a great design in the Chaparral, but THAT model really NEEDS a choil for being so small (much like the DFly does need one).
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby steelcity16 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:54 am

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:27 am
Thinking about this thread I started and reading some of the comments, I just want to point out once more (and maybe that´s a (general) topic for another thread or poll):

I no way this is about to "turning every folder into a backlock" or "to get every folder in a backlock version additionally to the existing version with another lock", BUT:

Think about it:

There are roughly said 4 main categories of Spyderco-locks: Backlock, Comp. lock. Liner-/Frame-lock, (C)BBL.

As far as I see and understand, the CBBL requires some choil in the blade, cause the lock itself takes up a lot of space in the handle, so a no choil - version is probably not a choice here anyway.
But both linerlock and now comp. lock Spyders have as well "choil-/ricasso-versions" PLUS "no choil-edge all the way back to the handle"-versions.
Backlock knives not, except the Centofante. But that one is a quite specialized knife, with its thin hollow grind and furthermore it does not feature the most evolved version of a backlock knife with edge all the way back to the handle, which would be a stop pin.

So: If you see it that way, I think it gets more understandable maybe, why some want also an all around, larger backlock knife with a maximum edge length.
And the stop pin backlock has proven itself to be a great design in the Chaparral, but THAT model really NEEDS a choil for being so small (much like the DFly does need one).

I started a similar thread awhile back. I believe there is a gap in the lineup as well. The Tenacious is really one of the great Spyderco designs, despite being relegated to the Chinese value line. If they were to make a Tenacious LW in Golden with a backlock, and do a Cruwear version and an LC200N Salt version, these would be amazing knives. The size, ergos, blade shape, and full length choil-less blade make the Tenacious a thing of beauty as it is. But make it in the USA, with bidirectional FRN (or even a new color of translucent FRCP), a deep carry wire clip, a backlock with a Boye dent, and premium steels and this may be my most carried knife. I really only carry FRN backlock knives anymore or I would carry my Tenacious often.
:spyder: Enjoys long walks on the beach with rustproof lightweight folding knives. Must love Boye Dents and deep carry wire clips. :spyder:

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Wartstein » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:07 am

steelcity16 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:54 am
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:27 am
Thinking about this thread I started and reading some of the comments, I just want to point out once more (and maybe that´s a (general) topic for another thread or poll):

I no way this is about to "turning every folder into a backlock" or "to get every folder in a backlock version additionally to the existing version with another lock", BUT:

Think about it:

There are roughly said 4 main categories of Spyderco-locks: Backlock, Comp. lock. Liner-/Frame-lock, (C)BBL.

As far as I see and understand, the CBBL requires some choil in the blade, cause the lock itself takes up a lot of space in the handle, so a no choil - version is probably not a choice here anyway.
But both linerlock and now comp. lock Spyders have as well "choil-/ricasso-versions" PLUS "no choil-edge all the way back to the handle"-versions.
Backlock knives not, except the Centofante. But that one is a quite specialized knife, with its thin hollow grind and furthermore it does not feature the most evolved version of a backlock knife with edge all the way back to the handle, which would be a stop pin.

So: If you see it that way, I think it gets more understandable maybe, why some want also an all around, larger backlock knife with a maximum edge length.
And the stop pin backlock has proven itself to be a great design in the Chaparral, but THAT model really NEEDS a choil for being so small (much like the DFly does need one).

I started a similar thread awhile back. I believe there is a gap in the lineup as well. The Tenacious is really one of the great Spyderco designs, despite being relegated to the Chinese value line. If they were to make a Tenacious LW in Golden with a backlock, and do a Cruwear version and an LC200N Salt version, these would be amazing knives. The size, ergos, blade shape, and full length choil-less blade make the Tenacious a thing of beauty as it is. But make it in the USA, with bidirectional FRN (or even a new color of translucent FRCP), a deep carry wire clip, a backlock with a Boye dent, and premium steels and this may be my most carried knife. I really only carry FRN backlock knives anymore or I would carry my Tenacious often.

Yeah, I remember your thread now!

There are really quite a few linerlock Spydies with an edge all the way back to the handle.

And, concerning the comp. lock, lets´s not forget: The Caribbean is really not the first or only comp. lock maximum edge length knife: Ikuchi, Sliverax, Mantra, Kapara come to mind immidiately (Kapara HAS a choil of course, but most of it in the HANDLE, not the blade, which is an ingenious design for a longer folder).
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Evil D » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:18 am

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:27 am

I no way this is about to "turning every folder into a backlock" or "to get every folder in a backlock version additionally to the existing version with another lock", BUT:
...........................


I've encountered this issue with many threads. It seems like people look at threads like this as if you're suggesting a total replacement. Go read any of the Military 2 threads and count how many people say "it's perfect the way it is". I think I've even made comments like that myself. When you find something you really like I think most people's first reaction to any change is resistance. I wonder if you asked a question like this but presented it as a sort of sprint run type of idea, where people understand right away that you're not asking for a replacement but rather a temporary option, if then they would be more receptive.

There is a weird psychological thing going on with these kinds of threads that is really interesting to me. Like when I asked for a premium version of the Tenacious, people just can't let go of the fact that it's a value knife, regardless of what it's made from or what country it's made in, some people will still see it as a "cheap knife" even if they make it in Golden right next to the Para 2 with the exact same materials. I wonder if some people have a similar association with lock types? Maybe they look at Salt knives as being cheap(er) and so when you ask about a back lock version of a knife that has a compression lock (which may be perceived as a premium lock to some) they view it as a lower end version?

Maybe I'm reading too much into all this but I think there's more to these types of polls than just simple preferences, because in other situations there are cult followings to knives like the Delica and if you ask the same kind of question about making changes to a Delica people will lose their minds fighting against that change. If you asked for a compression lock G10 Delica people will tell you how the back lock is perfect and don't fix what ain't broken.
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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Surfingringo » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:45 am

One limiting factor of having the edge going all the way back to the handle on a backlock is safety. Not everyone drops the blade onto the forefinger when closing one handed but many of us do and having enough unsharpened edge/Ricasso there to protect the finger from coming into contact with the edge is important. How far you can safely bring the edge back depends on a number of factors like handle shape, pivot placement, and how much margin of safety you want there. Were I designing a backlock I would try to bring the edge back as close to the handle as possible while still keeping the knife safe for one handed closing.

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Evil D » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:04 am

Surfingringo wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:45 am
One limiting factor of having the edge going all the way back to the handle on a backlock is safety. Not everyone drops the blade onto the forefinger when closing one handed but many of us do and having enough unsharpened edge/Ricasso there to protect the finger from coming into contact with the edge is important. How far you can safely bring the edge back depends on a number of factors like handle shape, pivot placement, and how much margin of safety you want there. Were I designing a backlock I would try to bring the edge back as close to the handle as possible while still keeping the knife safe for one handed closing.

It's possible to get around this but it takes some clever design and who knows if it can be done with this particular knife. The Centofante for example has pretty much the exact same amount of kick as a Delica, but the handle is designed to enclose the kick when the blade is open which puts your grip right up close to the edge. It seems like the location of the pivot and shape of the grip under it has a lot to do with how much of the kick drops down onto your finger. Either way I think it could be incorporated into the design and still keep the edge close to the grip.

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Tims » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:11 pm

Evil D wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:18 am
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:27 am

I no way this is about to "turning every folder into a backlock" or "to get every folder in a backlock version additionally to the existing version with another lock", BUT:
...........................


I've encountered this issue with many threads. It seems like people look at threads like this as if you're suggesting a total replacement. Go read any of the Military 2 threads and count how many people say "it's perfect the way it is". I think I've even made comments like that myself. When you find something you really like I think most people's first reaction to any change is resistance. I wonder if you asked a question like this but presented it as a sort of sprint run type of idea, where people understand right away that you're not asking for a replacement but rather a temporary option, if then they would be more receptive.

There is a weird psychological thing going on with these kinds of threads that is really interesting to me. Like when I asked for a premium version of the Tenacious, people just can't let go of the fact that it's a value knife, regardless of what it's made from or what country it's made in, some people will still see it as a "cheap knife" even if they make it in Golden right next to the Para 2 with the exact same materials. I wonder if some people have a similar association with lock types? Maybe they look at Salt knives as being cheap(er) and so when you ask about a back lock version of a knife that has a compression lock (which may be perceived as a premium lock to some) they view it as a lower end version?

Maybe I'm reading too much into all this but I think there's more to these types of polls than just simple preferences, because in other situations there are cult followings to knives like the Delica and if you ask the same kind of question about making changes to a Delica people will lose their minds fighting against that change. If you asked for a compression lock G10 Delica people will tell you how the back lock is perfect and don't fix what ain't broken.
I don’t think you are D. There is a large psychological component to a lot of threads. When I see a thread with too many ‘levels’ to the conversation I usually GTFO, replying only serves to further muddy the waters.

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Vivi » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:30 pm

Evil D wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:18 am
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:27 am

I no way this is about to "turning every folder into a backlock" or "to get every folder in a backlock version additionally to the existing version with another lock", BUT:
...........................


I've encountered this issue with many threads. It seems like people look at threads like this as if you're suggesting a total replacement. Go read any of the Military 2 threads and count how many people say "it's perfect the way it is". I think I've even made comments like that myself. When you find something you really like I think most people's first reaction to any change is resistance. I wonder if you asked a question like this but presented it as a sort of sprint run type of idea, where people understand right away that you're not asking for a replacement but rather a temporary option, if then they would be more receptive.

There is a weird psychological thing going on with these kinds of threads that is really interesting to me. Like when I asked for a premium version of the Tenacious, people just can't let go of the fact that it's a value knife, regardless of what it's made from or what country it's made in, some people will still see it as a "cheap knife" even if they make it in Golden right next to the Para 2 with the exact same materials. I wonder if some people have a similar association with lock types? Maybe they look at Salt knives as being cheap(er) and so when you ask about a back lock version of a knife that has a compression lock (which may be perceived as a premium lock to some) they view it as a lower end version?

Maybe I'm reading too much into all this but I think there's more to these types of polls than just simple preferences, because in other situations there are cult followings to knives like the Delica and if you ask the same kind of question about making changes to a Delica people will lose their minds fighting against that change. If you asked for a compression lock G10 Delica people will tell you how the back lock is perfect and don't fix what ain't broken.
I got a laugh at the Military 2 thread. There was an entire legion of people yelling for Sal not to release a knife he designed over a decade ago. I even had someone PM me over that thread because they didn't understand why they were being rude in that thread. It was a complete shit show and I don't blame Sal for keeping his distance from it if that was the attitude of people that like Spyderco enough to join their forum.

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby kilted_monkey » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:17 pm

The Caribbean is the only knife I've had so far where the compression lock REALLY worked for me. (Just pre-ordered a Kapara and I have a strong suspicion that will make two.) It was just fine on the Sage 5 and Para 3 LW, but sold those as I prefer the Sage 1 & 2 and (heresy!) the Bugout.

Eventually I will likely grab a second Caribbean (a serrated sheepsfoot to go with my plain leaf). While I DO like backlocks, I can't see how that addition would increase the appeal for me. The Caribbean as it is fills a niche for me that others fill with the PM2 or Manix 2.

That said... none of the above is meant as an argument against making them if others do want them, or a promise not to be tempted by backlock goodness if they were made. :)

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby ferider » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:58 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:27 am
But both linerlock and now comp. lock Spyders have as well "choil-/ricasso-versions" PLUS "no choil-edge all the way back to the handle"-versions.
Backlock knives not, except the Centofante. But that one is a quite specialized knife, with its thin hollow grind and furthermore it does not feature the most evolved version of a backlock knife with edge all the way back to the handle, which would be a stop pin.

So: If you see it that way, I think it gets more understandable maybe, why some want also an all around, larger backlock knife with a maximum edge length. And the stop pin backlock has proven itself to be a great design in the Chaparral, but THAT model really NEEDS a choil for being so small (much like the DFly does need one).
I often wonder why people always forget the Chinook in these discussions. True, it has a power-lock, but for the user, it behaves like a well-adjusted, no-play backlock. Interesting to compare Chinook 1-3, and 4, where 1-3 have choils, but the choil is gone in the 4. Maybe people don't like the Persian shape ? I think of it as a leaf with spine hollowed out and a better tip :)

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Re: POLL: Who´d like to see a knife along the lines of the Caribbean, but with a BACKLOCK?

Postby Bloke » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:09 pm

I’m a simpleton and see things in black and white. There’s very little, if any grey in my world. To that end I believe, for example, a Back Lock Military with nine redundant holes in the scales, the necessary change to the clip and possible changes to the blade to accommodate the new lock, ceases to be a Military and is best called a Chazwazza, Bitsa or something else, because it’s no longer a Military of any description.

I think the title of this thread was worded perfectly because there is no suggestion of a Caribbean 2 and feel there’s no harm in asking for a new knife similar to an existing model. On the other hand as D suggests in his post asking for, or even suggesting a change to an existing model is bound to rub someone the wrong way leading to disagreements which turn the thread into a shite fight. :eek:

Just my $AU0.02c worth. :)
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