Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

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Pelagic
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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Pelagic » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:55 am

15 degrees just caters to the sharpmaker. All in all Spyderco was pretty good at making SE knives easy to sharpen. Look at Cold Steel's serrations. I don't even know how I'd sharpen the small ones. Very impractical.

Good thread. I had no idea a hawbill's serrations were parallel to one another.
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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Vivi » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:02 am

Pelagic wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:55 am
15 degrees just caters to the sharpmaker. All in all Spyderco was pretty good at making SE knives easy to sharpen. Look at Cold Steel's serrations. I don't even know how I'd sharpen the small ones. Very impractical.

Good thread. I had no idea a hawbill's serrations were parallel to one another.
As someone that owns multiple serrated Cold Steel knives, I can second this. They require more specialized sharpening tools than Spyderco serrated knives, and seem to be more fragile overall.

Not all serrated knives are created equal.

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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Evil D » Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:18 am

I think I'd be just fine if they did away with the small serrations and only used the larger ones.
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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Jazz » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:47 am

I think the smaller serrations' points actually help the blade to hold on to some things being cut, like rope or seatbelts - to not slip off, I mean. They dig right in. I notice it in this video...

https://youtu.be/qo5AZNQd748
- best wishes, Jazz.

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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby gundamaniac » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:56 pm

I listened in on an interesting conversation between Lance and Sal at Blade this year regarding serrations. My reservations about sharpening serrations was always because I thought the points had to be maintained for serrations to work well, and I just didn't see how the Sharpmaker technique would do that. Lance pulled out a well used serrated Salt that he maintained on the Sharpmaker, and sure enough, the points were all rounded off. But he then explained to me that actually, he felt serrations cut better after the points were rounded off, as the blade edge then became less snaggy and rippy and more super aggressively slicey, and Sal agreed. I've always been a plain edge guy because of my misconceptions about serrations, yet have always been curious about their reportedly super aggressive cutting ability. But after hearing that, I really need to try out a serrated Spyderco for myself.


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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Evil D » Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:20 pm

They are FAR less snaggy with rounded points. I think this is slowly catching on, my new Caribbean is ground this way.
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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Pelagic » Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:22 pm

For my needs, the points help a LOT. Sawing through extremely thick rope is much more of a chore when the teeth are rounded. In fact, the knife with heavily used/rounded teeth can be hair whittling sharp, and a factory spyderedged knife will blow it out of the water. This is why I always put some time into sharpening serrations one at a time, although I do add some sweeping passes now simply to save time. I have a Pac Salt incoming finally, and I'll be preserving the factory teeth as best I can.

Edit: wow, just now snagged jumpmaster 1 as well.
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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Wartstein » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:21 am

I have a question on edge holding of SE blades (thought about starting a new thread, but than I figured THIS very helpfull thread needs a bump anyway):

- I can keep / get my SE Endela sharp quite easily on the Sharpmaker
- I use the 15 degree setting, of course the corner of formerly the brown, recently only the white stone
- I use Vivis method: Basically sharpening the scalloped side to 15 degree, on the other side I use a very shallow angle just to cut off the burr. Nothing else, no stropping or whatever
- I stop when the knife cleanly cuts printer paper (with each of the larger serrations), don´t need any more sharpness personally.
- So the edge is basically sharpened to 15 degrees INCLUSIVE, which works impressively well for almost any task. Tbh I can´t think of many tasks where a plain edge would do better
- BUT: My VG 10 serrated Endela holds an edge for a noticeable shorter amount of time than my PE VG10 knives do, even when I only perform rather light duty tasks.

- Could it be, that I just overestimate the stability of a 15 degree inclusive edge?
- Should I go to the 20 degree setting or wait till I really sharpened away all of the factory edge (in my experience edge holding sometimes gets better after some sharpening procedures (btw: This is VERY true for ESEE knives imho...)?

To be clear: Despite the not so impressive edge holding, I still really like a fully serrated blade a lot more than I thought I would!
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Evil D » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:21 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:21 am
I have a question on edge holding of SE blades (thought about starting a new thread, but than I figured THIS very helpfull thread needs a bump anyway):

- I can keep / get my SE Endela sharp quite easily on the Sharpmaker
- I use the 15 degree setting, of course the corner of formerly the brown, recently only the white stone
- I use Vivis method: Basically sharpening the scalloped side to 15 degree, on the other side I use a very shallow angle just to cut off the burr. Nothing else, no stropping or whatever
- I stop when the knife cleanly cuts printer paper (with each of the larger serrations), don´t need any more sharpness personally.
- So the edge is basically sharpened to 15 degrees INCLUSIVE, which works impressively well for almost any task. Tbh I can´t think of many tasks where a plain edge would do better
- BUT: My VG 10 serrated Endela holds an edge for a noticeable shorter amount of time than my PE VG10 knives do, even when I only perform rather light duty tasks.

- Could it be, that I just overestimate the stability of a 15 degree inclusive edge?
- Should I go to the 20 degree setting or wait till I really sharpened away all of the factory edge (in my experience edge holding sometimes gets better after some sharpening procedures (btw: This is VERY true for ESEE knives imho...)?

To be clear: Despite the not so impressive edge holding, I still really like a fully serrated blade a lot more than I thought I would!

If you're only using brown rods I would try moving up to the fine and ultra fine just to see if you're leaving any burr from the brown rods. The same rules apply to SE as with PE when it comes to edges going dull prematurely so if you don't have a clean apex that will effect edge retention. Once your SE knife is dull do you see any rolling or obvious signs of edge damage?
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Woodpuppy » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:30 am

I’ve read many times about not judging a steel until the factory edge is sharpened away due to “burning” the edge during grinding. I can’t say I’m experienced enough to speak to that, and I got a slew of new steels in less than 6mos; edge-holding and sharpening were both revelations.

The only SE knife I have is a Salt 2, and it sharpens like butter. I don’t think of it as particularly durable, but I also probably use that one to the point of abuse; I’m much more interested in preserving a fine edge on my PE knives, but that SE? It needs rough use :D It is very scratched up; in fact aluminum tubing scratched it (or the mud that was on the tubing...?).

You could try a 20 degree micro bevel to see if that gets you better durability for your uses. It will take more work to get back to 15 though.

For touch ups I use the fine ceramic side/corner of my Doublestuff-2. Setting the bottom corner on the suede pouch I hold the stone at the angle that matches the serrations and do edge leading heel to tip strokes. To debur I lay the stone down and lightly stroke edge trailing. I’ve done a little finishing with a strop but I don’t think it gained me much.
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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Wartstein » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:10 am

Evil D wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:21 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:21 am
I have a question on edge holding of SE blades (thought about starting a new thread, but than I figured THIS very helpfull thread needs a bump anyway):

- I can keep / get my SE Endela sharp quite easily on the Sharpmaker
- I use the 15 degree setting, of course the corner of formerly the brown, recently only the white stone
- I use Vivis method: Basically sharpening the scalloped side to 15 degree, on the other side I use a very shallow angle just to cut off the burr. Nothing else, no stropping or whatever
- I stop when the knife cleanly cuts printer paper (with each of the larger serrations), don´t need any more sharpness personally.
- So the edge is basically sharpened to 15 degrees INCLUSIVE, which works impressively well for almost any task. Tbh I can´t think of many tasks where a plain edge would do better
- BUT: My VG 10 serrated Endela holds an edge for a noticeable shorter amount of time than my PE VG10 knives do, even when I only perform rather light duty tasks.

- Could it be, that I just overestimate the stability of a 15 degree inclusive edge?
- Should I go to the 20 degree setting or wait till I really sharpened away all of the factory edge (in my experience edge holding sometimes gets better after some sharpening procedures (btw: This is VERY true for ESEE knives imho...)?

To be clear: Despite the not so impressive edge holding, I still really like a fully serrated blade a lot more than I thought I would!

If you're only using brown rods I would try moving up to the fine and ultra fine just to see if you're leaving any burr from the brown rods. The same rules apply to SE as with PE when it comes to edges going dull prematurely so if you don't have a clean apex that will effect edge retention. Once your SE knife is dull do you see any rolling or obvious signs of edge damage?
Thanks!

Should have been more clear:

I used only the brown rods for four or five entire sharpening processes after I got the knife.

Then I watched Sal explaining on the sharpmaker instructional dvd how it would be better to only use the whites for the whole sharpening process
So I did this for the last 3 or 4 sharpenings, and used only the whites (did not touch up the Endela SE more often then at the max ten times: Used it a lot, but only have it for quite a short time ).

Without a lupe i can't see any edge damage when the knife is dull (have to get a lupe, I know!)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Evil D » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:28 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:10 am

Without a lupe i can't see any edge damage when the knife is dull (have to get a lupe, I know!)

It may just be the 15dps edge. I always sharpen mine at 40 and even then I've had some chipping when cutting certain things. Maybe try a micro bevel on the 40 setting and see if that gives you better edge retention.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby FK » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:37 am

I really like the loupe made by Belomo it is triplet and 10x with great quality for the price.
With strong light assist, it will show the stubborn burr or any slight defects in the apex formation.
My early efforts with ZDP-189 were frustrating until I obtained this loupe and closely examined the edge while sharpening.

You are most likely having problems with your VG-10 Endela SE due to burr remaining on the edge after sharpening. Very quickly it will break away in use and result in premature dullness.
I have only two VG-10 SE knives,,, a new Endura Wharncliffe SE and C1414SBK3 Rrescue with FFG and SE. They are both FFG and will hold an edge very well. I sharpen at the factory angle with the serrations marked with black marker,,, no micro bevel. I lay the Sharpmaker stones flat (horizontal) on the base and rock the knife to fully contact the serration angle. Saw motion with back and forth strokes to fully contact the serrated grooves. Very light touch deburring on the flat side and closely examine the serrated side will take several reversals to fully eliminate any burr.

Regards,
FK

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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:33 pm

Jazz wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:47 am
I think the smaller serrations' points actually help the blade to hold on to some things being cut, like rope or seatbelts - to not slip off, I mean. They dig right in. I notice it in this video...

https://youtu.be/qo5AZNQd748
Hi Jazz nice video. Which Spyderco model is the blue knife in the video?

Thanks.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Jazz » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:57 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:33 pm

Hi Jazz nice video. Which Spyderco model is the blue knife in the video?

Thanks.

Thank you. It’s an older 93mm Rescue. It had a 60/40 or something blade. I shortened it and made it a wharnie. Don’t you love how Photobucket put their logo over every picture? I think it’s fabulous. :rolleyes:

Image
- best wishes, Jazz.

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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:22 pm

photobucket branding not cool.

Your Modification Awesome. Wharncliffe Blade’s are your thing right?

Having seen one of your other videos it almost got me to buy a wharncliffe Delica probably will next any good Wharncliffe Spydie recommendations besides the fighting knives?
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Jazz » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:34 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:22 pm

Having seen one of your other videos it almost got me to buy a wharncliffe Delica probably will next any good Wharncliffe Spydie recommendations besides the fighting knives?

Yes, I like a wharncliffe, especially for work. Not sure if you know how the wharnie Delica came about. Here’s a link to the thread. Ignore it if it’s old news to you, bro. Sal and Eric are awesome for listening to some of us complain. :o

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70607&p=1082686#p1082686

Which are fighting knives to you? I’d say the Yojimbo is a self defence knife. Anyway, the Delicas are perfect examples of a wharncliffe blade. They just work. I can’t imagine replacing my Delica work knife for anything else, ever. I didn’t just make a vid about it, I love it. The Dragonfly wharnie is pretty neat. Small, but powerful, and if you like a choil, it’s there.
- best wishes, Jazz.

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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby cabfrank » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:51 pm

I haven't read the entire thread yet, I will, but I just wanted to say the info and demo in the first post is fantastic. Thanks, Vivi. I do love my PE Pac Salt, but I have to get an SE also.

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Re: Compendium of tips for sharpening serrated knives

Postby Vivi » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:40 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:21 am
I have a question on edge holding of SE blades (thought about starting a new thread, but than I figured THIS very helpfull thread needs a bump anyway):

- I can keep / get my SE Endela sharp quite easily on the Sharpmaker
- I use the 15 degree setting, of course the corner of formerly the brown, recently only the white stone
- I use Vivis method: Basically sharpening the scalloped side to 15 degree, on the other side I use a very shallow angle just to cut off the burr. Nothing else, no stropping or whatever
- I stop when the knife cleanly cuts printer paper (with each of the larger serrations), don´t need any more sharpness personally.
- So the edge is basically sharpened to 15 degrees INCLUSIVE, which works impressively well for almost any task. Tbh I can´t think of many tasks where a plain edge would do better
- BUT: My VG 10 serrated Endela holds an edge for a noticeable shorter amount of time than my PE VG10 knives do, even when I only perform rather light duty tasks.

- Could it be, that I just overestimate the stability of a 15 degree inclusive edge?
- Should I go to the 20 degree setting or wait till I really sharpened away all of the factory edge (in my experience edge holding sometimes gets better after some sharpening procedures (btw: This is VERY true for ESEE knives imho...)?

To be clear: Despite the not so impressive edge holding, I still really like a fully serrated blade a lot more than I thought I would!
What's the hardest use you're putting the knife through?

Like others mentioned, depending on what you're cutting, a 20 degree microbevel could give you better results. It will have a stronger edge that way.

Do you have a strop? Stropping a knife is a good way to check for a burr. If there is a burr it will grab buffing compound, making it obvious which parts need a little more work.

Your knife should get sharp and stay sharp as well as PE whether you're using the brown or white rods. It will lose push cutting sharpness faster with a brown rod edge, and slicing sharpness quicker with a fine white rod edge.

Have you noticed the teeth between scallops being bent at all? Any of the tips missing? Any spots on the scallops where light reflects if you're looking straight at the apex? Any of those things can indicate edge damage.


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