I don't think a small slip joint is a good platform for testing steels. Some people would buy it out of curiosity, but how much could we learn? They couldn't be pushed to the limits like a fixed blade.
The fixed blades aren’t selling though.
Are they supposed to sell? Surely the Mules aren’t made with making money as their primary goal.
Agree with BornIn1500 that a small knife is a strange thing to test steels with. Honestly steel matters much less the smaller the blade. How many hours are you really spending behind a 2” knife?
Besides, steel junkies are presently finding joy in many more Spydie models than just the Mule FB. Varied and unusual steels have been offered in the PM2, the Military, the Manix, and, oh yeah, the Para3, not to forget Seki-City’s models,
Yep, the PM2 has been a mule project since it was first made. :cool: Most just haven’t realised
Many of These knives are not legal in many places and are expensive, like the pm2.
True, that.
That’s why I’m all for more exceptional steels in the relatively inexpensive Urban. Or even the (legendary?) Lil’ Native slipjoint of somewhat higher price.
I doubt, however, that Spyderco wants to narrow its margins, as it did for the Mule Team Program, especially if it no longer needs such a program, which may be the case.
-Marc (pocketing an S110V Native5 today)
“When science changes its opinion, it didn’t lie to you. It learned more.”
I've been having fun with larger folders of late, but what exactly is it people think you CAN'T test with a small folder?
When I carry a knife I carry a folding knife.
I like thin knives as I tend to cut things with my knives more than use them as pry bars, hammers, screw drivers, or splitting wedges.
A beefy fixed blade isn't going to tell me much about how a particular steel will perform for me as an edc steel. Besides being the wrong size and thickness compared to what I actually carry, I can't carry a fixed blade where I live, so not really representative of my edc, and not practical as a test vehicle.
......So the Urban.
Can I test the ease of shapenability and the effects of different sharpening mediums? CHECK.
Can I experiment with different edge angles to see how the steel performs at thin edge geometries? CHECK.
Can I use the Urban for 99.9 of the EDC tasks I ever use a pocket knife for? Open boxes, break down carboard, cut rope, prep food, whittle?.... CHECK
What's stopping you from taking an anvil a rubber mallet and a nail and seeing if you can hammer the steel through a nail if that's your idea of testing? Or batoning it through some little branches?
Maybe different people have different needs, but I can test everything I need to test for an edc knife with an Urban. Ease of sharpening, different sharpening mediums, edge geometry, edge retention, corrosion resistance, edge toughness. And it's an inexpensive knife that can be carried just about anywhere knives can be carried. It will let me know whether or not I want to buy a more expensive knife with the same steel. :spyder:
-Matta.k.a. Lo_Que, loadedquestions135I ❤ The P'KAL
"The world of edges has a small doorway in, but opens into a cavern that is both wide and deep." -sal
Can I test the ease of shapenability and the effects of different sharpening mediums? CHECK.
Can I experiment with different edge angles to see how the steel performs at thin edge geometries? CHECK.
Can I use the Urban for 99.9 of the EDC tasks I ever use a pocket knife for? Open boxes, break down carboard, cut rope, prep food, whittle?.... CHECK
What's stopping you from taking an anvil a rubber mallet and a nail and seeing if you can hammer the steel through a nail if that's your idea of testing? Or batoning it through some little branches?
Maybe different people have different needs, but I can test everything I need to test for an edc knife with an Urban. Ease of sharpening, different sharpening mediums, edge geometry, edge retention, corrosion resistance, edge toughness. And it's an inexpensive knife that can be carried just about anywhere knives can be carried. It will let me know whether or not I want to buy a more expensive knife with the same steel. :spyder:
I don't think a small slip joint is a good platform for testing steels. Some people would buy it out of curiosity, but how much could we learn? They couldn't be pushed to the limits like a fixed blade.
The fixed blades aren’t selling though.
Are they supposed to sell? Surely the Mules aren’t made with making money as their primary goal.
Agree with BornIn1500 that a small knife is a strange thing to test steels with. Honestly steel matters much less the smaller the blade. How many hours are you really spending behind a 2” knife?
Yes, I’d say they’re supposed to sell. What good is a steel testing program if nobody buys and tests the steel you’re asking to be tested?
Most recently acquired: Military 2, Paramilitary 2 Tanto x2, YoJUMBO, Swayback, Siren, DLC Yojimbo 2, Native Chief, Shaman S90V, Para 3 LW, Ikuchi, UKPK, Smock, SUBVERT, Amalgam, Para 3 CTS-XHP, Kapara, Paramilitary 2 M390 Grail Paramilitary 2 M390 X 2! ACHIEVED!!
For more of my pictures see my Instagram account. @liquid_cobra
I don't think a small slip joint is a good platform for testing steels. Some people would buy it out of curiosity, but how much could we learn? They couldn't be pushed to the limits like a fixed blade.
The fixed blades aren’t selling though.
Are they supposed to sell? Surely the Mules aren’t made with making money as their primary goal.
Agree with BornIn1500 that a small knife is a strange thing to test steels with. Honestly steel matters much less the smaller the blade. How many hours are you really spending behind a 2” knife?
Yes, I’d say they’re supposed to sell. What good is a steel testing program if nobody buys and tests the steel you’re asking to be tested?
Didn’t Sal comment on this not long ago saying the reason fir the demise of the Mule program was the lack of sales? I think that is why he was interested in our original conversation about the Urban as a mule. Am I remembering correctly?
I Pray Heaven to Bestow The Best of Blessing on THIS HOUSE, and on ALL that shall hereafter Inhabit it. May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under This Roof! (John Adams regarding the White House)
Follow the Christ, the King,
Live pure, speak true, right wrong, follow the King--
Else, wherefore born?" (Tennyson)
........
Didn’t Sal comment on this not long ago saying the reason fir the demise of the Mule program was the lack of sales? I think that is why he was interested in our original conversation about the Urban as a mule. Am I remembering correctly?
I believe you are correct.
And I do like the idea of a lil native slipjoint mule.
-Matta.k.a. Lo_Que, loadedquestions135I ❤ The P'KAL
"The world of edges has a small doorway in, but opens into a cavern that is both wide and deep." -sal
I like thin knives as I tend to cut things with my knives more than use them as pry bars, hammers, screw drivers, or splitting wedges.
A beefy fixed blade isn't going to tell me much about how a particular steel will perform for me as an edc steel. Besides being the wrong size and thickness compared to what I actually carry, I can't carry a fixed blade where I live, so not really representative of my edc, and not practical as a test vehicle.
......So the Urban.
Right. But if all you think should be done with a new steel is simple cuts and sharpening, then I fail to see why they'd need to go through the hassle of putting the alloy into the hands of lots of people for "testing" when it should be easy enough to test simple cuts themselves in-house. :confused: I think they can easily skip the Mule step if simple cuts are all people want to know about. It really seems like people just want more sprints.
Didn’t Sal comment on this not long ago saying the reason fir the demise of the Mule program was the lack of sales? I think that is why he was interested in our original conversation about the Urban as a mule. Am I remembering correctly?
Huh, I never would have guessed that. Steel nerds are such a small market and Mules are only really interesting briefly. I always figured it was more of a testing platform, something standardized they could send out to influencers to get feedback on steel/heat treatment. And that the general sales were just kind of as a favor to the enthusiast crowd.
I think UKPK sprints are also a good way to make test steels.
Since the Urban tooling is in Maniago, and the UKPK tooling is in Golden, they'd be complementary. Get the steel to wherever it's cheaper to ship to, and make them there in whichever pattern is being produced there.
I'd guess we are seeing more Urban sprints because Golden is busier producing Spyderco's other Golden models, where Maniago is a contractor who may have more free capacity to build Urbans under contract.
But I'm with you. More UKPK sprints would be great. Or, better yet, a standard production Maxamet UKPK. :)
I like thin knives as I tend to cut things with my knives more than use them as pry bars, hammers, screw drivers, or splitting wedges.
A beefy fixed blade isn't going to tell me much about how a particular steel will perform for me as an edc steel. Besides being the wrong size and thickness compared to what I actually carry, I can't carry a fixed blade where I live, so not really representative of my edc, and not practical as a test vehicle.
......So the Urban.
Right. But if all you think should be done with a new steel is simple cuts and sharpening, then I fail to see why they'd need to go through the hassle of putting the alloy into the hands of lots of people for "testing" when it should be easy enough to test simple cuts themselves in-house. :confused: I think they can easily skip the Mule step if simple cuts are all people want to know about. It really seems like people just want more sprints.
perhaps we're looking at this from different perspective, I thought it was about 'us' the consumer getting to test the steel. And then giving Spyderco feedback as to what we like/dislike i.e. this is a pain to sharpen, this has bad corrosion resistance, this doesn't hold an edge very long cutting this or that material.... or wow this is the best steel I've ever tried, please make sprint runs of this steel in every model.
What tests are you looking to do? I mean even if you want to hammer the tip into a piece of wood and torque it sideways to see how tough it is, I still don't see why you can't. Or chop a nail, cut carpet. I suppose a slipjoint isn't the best to use for hacking through a 2x4. But what folder is? And we are testing this steel for use in folders.
-Matta.k.a. Lo_Que, loadedquestions135I ❤ The P'KAL
"The world of edges has a small doorway in, but opens into a cavern that is both wide and deep." -sal
Didn’t Sal comment on this not long ago saying the reason fir the demise of the Mule program was the lack of sales? I think that is why he was interested in our original conversation about the Urban as a mule. Am I remembering correctly?
Huh, I never would have guessed that. Steel nerds are such a small market and Mules are only really interesting briefly. I always figured it was more of a testing platform, something standardized they could send out to influencers to get feedback on steel/heat treatment. And that the general sales were just kind of as a favor to the enthusiast crowd.
I’m not saying they need to sell so Spyderco can make a profit, simply that they need to sell so enough people have the steel to play with. Sal has said that they sell the mules at as low a price as possible and that profit isn’t their motivation for the program.
Most recently acquired: Military 2, Paramilitary 2 Tanto x2, YoJUMBO, Swayback, Siren, DLC Yojimbo 2, Native Chief, Shaman S90V, Para 3 LW, Ikuchi, UKPK, Smock, SUBVERT, Amalgam, Para 3 CTS-XHP, Kapara, Paramilitary 2 M390 Grail Paramilitary 2 M390 X 2! ACHIEVED!!
For more of my pictures see my Instagram account. @liquid_cobra
Didn’t Sal comment on this not long ago saying the reason fir the demise of the Mule program was the lack of sales? I think that is why he was interested in our original conversation about the Urban as a mule. Am I remembering correctly?
Huh, I never would have guessed that. Steel nerds are such a small market and Mules are only really interesting briefly. I always figured it was more of a testing platform, something standardized they could send out to influencers to get feedback on steel/heat treatment. And that the general sales were just kind of as a favor to the enthusiast crowd.
I’m not saying they need to sell so Spyderco can make a profit, simply that they need to sell so enough people have the steel to play with. Sal has said that they sell the mules at as low a price as possible and that profit isn’t their motivation for the program.
Exactly. It's not about profit, but if they make a bunch of knives that don't sell, they lose money.
-Matta.k.a. Lo_Que, loadedquestions135I ❤ The P'KAL
"The world of edges has a small doorway in, but opens into a cavern that is both wide and deep." -sal
Didn’t Sal comment on this not long ago saying the reason fir the demise of the Mule program was the lack of sales? I think that is why he was interested in our original conversation about the Urban as a mule. Am I remembering correctly?
Huh, I never would have guessed that. Steel nerds are such a small market and Mules are only really interesting briefly. I always figured it was more of a testing platform, something standardized they could send out to influencers to get feedback on steel/heat treatment. And that the general sales were just kind of as a favor to the enthusiast crowd.
I’m not saying they need to sell so Spyderco can make a profit, simply that they need to sell so enough people have the steel to play with. Sal has said that they sell the mules at as low a price as possible and that profit isn’t their motivation for the program.
Exactly. It's not about profit, but if they make a bunch of knives that don't sell, they lose money.
I think it also showed that there was dwindling interest in the Mule project. I think there were not enough purchases to make it worthwhile for that reason alone not to mention the financial cost.
I don’t think it was a case of people not being interested in testing those steels. Look at how people are buying folding knives in particular with all of these different types of steels. It’s just that the fixed blade wasn’t practical enough or did not have enough appeal that the folding knife concept obviously does.
How many steals has the P3, PM2, Delica, Urban, and others been offered in? Every time they come out another steel they fly off the shelves. This was never true of the fixed blade mules.
I Pray Heaven to Bestow The Best of Blessing on THIS HOUSE, and on ALL that shall hereafter Inhabit it. May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under This Roof! (John Adams regarding the White House)
Follow the Christ, the King,
Live pure, speak true, right wrong, follow the King--
Else, wherefore born?" (Tennyson)
I don't think a small slip joint is a good platform for testing steels. Some people would buy it out of curiosity, but how much could we learn? They couldn't be pushed to the limits like a fixed blade.
The fixed blades aren’t selling though.
Because they are blanks.Most of us aren't artisans,and to put scales on a blank,not to speak of a decent sheath drive the cost way too high.And then there are shipping cost,time to find a guy you trust to do it,etc.
Put some cheap frn scales on them,and a cheap plastic sheath.and see them stampede.
Upcoming? Is the Slipjoint Lil Native even happening though? For some reason, I seem to remember hearing that it's not happening anymore. :confused:
Does anyone know anything more about this?
I wasn't aware it was ever in their plans, until I just now watched a BHQ video from Blade 2017. That would be such a great platform for a slipjoint, too bad if it never comes to fruition
Upcoming? Is the Slipjoint Lil Native even happening though? For some reason, I seem to remember hearing that it's not happening anymore. :confused:
I was totally unaware Spyderco ever had a Lil'slippy on their release schedule. Just found out while (probably re-)watching a BHQ video with Ben and Eric at Blade 2017. That "news" made me quite happy, as I've actually had been hoping something like that could happen since there is already a compression lock and back lock version.
The Lil'Native fit my hand like a glove, and I'm not drowning in an abundance of well made one hand opening slippies that fits like a glove.
Anyone know if it's still on, or if it's cancelled?
Oh, sorry for double posting about this. Forgot I actually managed to post the first one and thought I had accidentally navigated away from the page before submitting. Seems like I put more effort in the second one, so it wasn't totally redundant :-)
I don't think a small slip joint is a good platform for testing steels. Some people would buy it out of curiosity, but how much could we learn? They couldn't be pushed to the limits like a fixed blade.
The fixed blades aren’t selling though.
Because they are blanks.Most of us aren't artisans,and to put scales on a blank,not to speak of a decent sheath drive the cost way too high.And then there are shipping cost,time to find a guy you trust to do it,etc.
Put some cheap frn scales on them,and a cheap plastic sheath.and see them stampede.
That was easy enough with the Halpern scales and sheaths that SFO also sold. Made for a very tidy fixed blade in the steel of your choice.
A slippie mule would be excellent. I would *slightly* prefer a UKPK over a lil native, really just for the thinner blade. Golden made, certainly.
