Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

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SpyderEdgeForever
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Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:57 pm

As many of you who have read my posts likely know, I love saber grinds on knife blades. The Spyderco Endura and Delica 4, as well as others with both the standard saber grind and the "saber hollow or hollow saber grind" are what I consider to be excellent, winning combinations. However, I used to despise and fear hollow grinds on knives because I associated them with easy breakage and chipping. Some on here, such as "EvilD" and others have convinced me to rethink that, and now I definitely see great use and utilitarian practicality in full-flat grinds, and even, yes, certain hollow-grinds. A hollow ground blade does not have to be weak.

What I would like are your views and opinions on the various saber grinds, and help myself and others get a basic understanding of the different types of saber-grinds, how they differ in their cutting use and application, and, what you consider to be the ups and downs of saber grinds vs other knife grinds.

Example: Some upsides to the saber grind are:

1 Stronger, tougher blade geometry.
2 More of a "dimensional look" as opposed to a single shape.

Some downsides:

1 Does not cut as smoothly, perhaps, as other grinds, like a full flat grind.
2 Could make the blade heavier and more unwieldly.


What are some other up and down sides to the saber grind?

Also what are some of the different types of saber grinds that are known?

Flat Saber
Hollow Saber
Scandi or Zero Edge Saber

Would you consider the present grind on the Spyderco Pacific Salt to be a true Hollow Grind, or, is it more like a Hollow Saber Grind?

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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby knivesandbooks » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:08 pm

I think of a saber grind as just having a flat grind. A scandi is just a Sandi, etc.

I don't mind saber grind on certain fixed blades but that's about it. They look good but eh. Now if the saber's flat grind starts around 80% and has an aggressive grind, then maybe. Prefer flat grind and hollow grinds for folding knives. I've a couple knives with high height hollow grinds and I really enjoy those, maybe even more than a flat grind. They slice excellently and I've been told the edge doesn't thicken as much as they get repeatedly sharpened.
I own an assisted knife and am embarrassed to admit I enjoy it.

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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby Vivi » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:48 pm

I would never choose any form of saber grind over a full flat grind given the choice.

They do look nice, I'll admit, but they perform worse for me. My EDC is dictated by performance rather than looks.

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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:02 pm

knivesandbooks wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:08 pm
I think of a saber grind as just having a flat grind. A scandi is just a Sandi, etc.

I don't mind saber grind on certain fixed blades but that's about it. They look good but eh. Now if the saber's flat grind starts around 80% and has an aggressive grind, then maybe. Prefer flat grind and hollow grinds for folding knives. I've a couple knives with high height hollow grinds and I really enjoy those, maybe even more than a flat grind. They slice excellently and I've been told the edge doesn't thicken as much as they get repeatedly sharpened.
That reminds me of a knife expert who told me he likes a saber grind on a sword but not on a folder :)

What suggestions do you have for knife makers like Spyderco to make some of their knives with high hollow grinds? Which models would be better suited for that than others?

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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby BornIn1500 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:05 pm

I'd have to say "indifference". I used a saber grind for many years when I worked on a farm and I beat the crap out of it. After 8 years with my Boker Top Lock, I was down to having only the pivot and a cotter pin I rigged up through the lanyard hole to hold this knife together. All other screws fell out over the years of abuse. It saw some stuff... let's put it that way. Honestly, the grind of the knife wouldn't have made any difference. I can count on one hand the amount of times where I cut something so thick the whole height of the blade was sunk into the material. It just didn't happen. 99%+ of cuts were on thin materials like rope, twine, rubber hose, thin pieces of plastic, etc. Would a full flat grind have mattered? Nope. I imagine many other people are the same. I think, as "knife aficionados", we make way too big of a deal out of the grind on knives. It may matter to some, but not for the vast majority (who don't visit these forums).

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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby steelcity16 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:10 pm

I actually really like my foliage green saber ground combo edge Delica and plan on getting the blacked out version as well as both versions in the Endura. I hope to see both the foliage and blacked out saber ground combo edge variations in the Endela and the Police LW as well. I would buy them all. Great do it all hard use lightweight knives.
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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:14 pm

steelcity16 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:10 pm
I actually really like my foliage green saber ground combo edge Delica and plan on getting the blacked out version as well as both versions in the Endura. I hope to see both the foliage and blacked out saber ground combo edge variations in the Endela and the Police LW as well. I would buy them all. Great do it all hard use lightweight knives.
I am very glad you mentioned that. I have a Foliage Green Saber Ground Endura 4 with combo-edge. It is a very durable and usable knife.

Do you think the Endela will be made in saber grind and combo edge?

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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby spoonrobot » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:44 pm

I love the saber grind. It's not a good choice for all blade shapes and styles but it's great for quite a few. I prefer smaller/narrower blades with the saber as it gives them a little more heft and I feel they handle and cut better. For example I think the saber E4/D4 are much better than the FFG models.

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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby TomAiello » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:08 am

I prefer FFG (or HG) for a folder. Saber grind seems better suited to a fixed blade, hard use knife for me.

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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby Tims » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:52 am

I would never choose saber over ffg or hollow in a pocket knife.

I do have them because no other grind options were available in that model but for me, I’ll leave the thick grinds for fixed blades where the focus shifts from pure cutting performance to durability.

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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby Evil D » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:38 am

I'll pass. I hated the Manix 2 until it got FFG. It's also the biggest reason I've never had a Pacific and a big reason I haven't carried my Autonomy since getting a Caribbean.
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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby ZrowsN1s » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:54 am

Do hollow grinds count?
Love my Yo2(s)(although I would love a ffg version)
Love the saber/hollow ground 4V Manix
Love my Emerson Wave Dfly
Dfly Salt
Tasman Salt

I PREFER FFG (like 99% of my knives are ffg), but I like a little variety.
Carrying 3 knives is perfectly normal :D
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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby ShaneInDenver » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:05 pm

I like to carry a pocket knife, my grandpop carried one, my dad carries one and as is tradition, I also carry one. Frankly though, I hardly ever use it, but the one thing I consistently use my knife for is breaking down cardboard.

I have a saber ground Endura 4 in spyder edge and also a ffg Endura 4 in plain edge and the ffg model cuts so much better through the cardboard than the saber ground model. Now this could be due to se vs pe, but I feel like the thicker stock of the saber ground model get's hung up when cutting through larger boxes.

I do have a Tasman Salt in spyder edge that chews through cardboard and I think it excels so well at cutting due to the hawkbill blade shape and the serrations in the blade. I don't have measurements in front of me, but I can say the Endura 4 stock is much thicker than that of the Tasman's and I'm sure this contributes to the performance I'm seeing cutting cardboard.

All of that said, I guess I'm indifferent ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'd be curious try a ffg regrind on my saber ground Endura.

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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:35 am

I have no problem using different grinds, as my knife collection has different ground blades. Sometimes I want a more robust grind (Saber) and sometimes I want a smooth pass ( FFG) for tasks that require the good portion of the blade to go through the material.
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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby Evil D » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:57 am

What type of jobs are you guys doing where the strength of a saber grinds vs FFG makes a big enough difference to sacrifice cutting performance?

Think about this logically. If we say for example that short materials that the blade doesn't have to pass all the way through are ok for a saber grind and don't suffer the slicing loss vs FFG, what materials are those exactly? Rope? Are you hammering through heavy wire cables or something?

I'm trying hard to find a knife vs knife example where strength advantage would be worth the loss in performance and I just don't see it. There isn't a major issue with people snapping off FFG blades, even when the Delica went to FFG has there really been an influx of people breaking blades because of it?

Maybe on a fixed blade I can see an advantage with more strength if you plan on beating it to pieces but with folders the pivot seems more likely to break before the blade unless you're prying with the blade. Spyderco generally run their FFG on the thicker side anyway, the Manix 2 for example is actually thicker at the tip on the FFG than it is on the hollow grind.

I just don't see a practical need for a stronger blade unless the rest of the knife is equally beefed up to go along with it. Performance wise there's just more loss than gain.
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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:38 am

Evil D wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:57 am
What type of jobs are you guys doing where the strength of a saber grinds vs FFG makes a big enough difference to sacrifice cutting performance?

Think about this logically. If we say for example that short materials that the blade doesn't have to pass all the way through are ok for a saber grind and don't suffer the slicing loss vs FFG, what materials are those exactly? Rope? Are you hammering through heavy wire cables or something?

I'm trying hard to find a knife vs knife example where strength advantage would be worth the loss in performance and I just don't see it. There isn't a major issue with people snapping off FFG blades, even when the Delica went to FFG has there really been an influx of people breaking blades because of it?

Maybe on a fixed blade I can see an advantage with more strength if you plan on beating it to pieces but with folders the pivot seems more likely to break before the blade unless you're prying with the blade. Spyderco generally run their FFG on the thicker side anyway, the Manix 2 for example is actually thicker at the tip on the FFG than it is on the hollow grind.

I just don't see a practical need for a stronger blade unless the rest of the knife is equally beefed up to go along with it. Performance wise there's just more loss than gain.
There are times where I would split a 1×4 into two pieces
and the method to which I do it would not be recomended for FFGs. These are tactics I use when I didnt have the luxury of having a fixed blade near by. There are gonna be comprimises regardless of the grind you choose
Every Steel Has Its Appeal :cool:

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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby Pelagic » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:45 pm

I would take a sabre grind on an extremely hard use knife. But for 99% of tasks, give me FFG or hollow.
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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby Wartstein » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:07 pm

Evil D wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:57 am
What type of jobs are you guys doing where the strength of a saber grinds vs FFG makes a big enough difference to sacrifice cutting performance?

.....
First let me say: In a folder I like ffg by far over any other grind, and sure over sabre grind.

On the rare occasions when I bring my Delica comboedge sabregrind or my Endura pe sabregrind it's mostly just for the stronger TIP Spydercos sabregrind gives you.

A short time ago I did share this story (page 40) viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79554&start=780#p1344045 about unpacking various helicopter loads and using my Delica sg for that.
That is a good example for when I want the sabre grind TIP (and not necessarely the edge). A lot of different packing material has to be cut in high speed, no time at all to be carefull with the knife, you constantly hit hard materials (metal barrels and so on) with the tip, twist and tourque the blade at the tip... I am not sure if the ffg Delica tip could take this without snapping off...
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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby Evil D » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:17 pm

A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:38 am
Evil D wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:57 am
What type of jobs are you guys doing where the strength of a saber grinds vs FFG makes a big enough difference to sacrifice cutting performance?

Think about this logically. If we say for example that short materials that the blade doesn't have to pass all the way through are ok for a saber grind and don't suffer the slicing loss vs FFG, what materials are those exactly? Rope? Are you hammering through heavy wire cables or something?

I'm trying hard to find a knife vs knife example where strength advantage would be worth the loss in performance and I just don't see it. There isn't a major issue with people snapping off FFG blades, even when the Delica went to FFG has there really been an influx of people breaking blades because of it?

Maybe on a fixed blade I can see an advantage with more strength if you plan on beating it to pieces but with folders the pivot seems more likely to break before the blade unless you're prying with the blade. Spyderco generally run their FFG on the thicker side anyway, the Manix 2 for example is actually thicker at the tip on the FFG than it is on the hollow grind.

I just don't see a practical need for a stronger blade unless the rest of the knife is equally beefed up to go along with it. Performance wise there's just more loss than gain.
There are times where I would split a 1×4 into two pieces
and the method to which I do it would not be recomended for FFGs. These are tactics I use when I didnt have the luxury of having a fixed blade near by. There are gonna be comprimises regardless of the grind you choose

I bet you a knife of your choosing I can baton through a 2x4 with a Svord Peasant :cool:
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Re: Saber Grinds Revisited: Love, Hate, Indifference?

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:56 pm

Evil D wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:17 pm

I bet you a knife of your choosing I can baton through a 2x4 with a Svord Peasant :cool:
Wasnt refering to straight batoning. My method is batoning part of the way then I torque the blade to complete the split. I have no doubt that you can baton through a 2×4 with a Peasant :cool:
Every Steel Has Its Appeal :cool:

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