German 4116 series Stainless?

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Some companies have used German 4116 series Stainless Steel for knife blades. What do you think of this steel and would Spyderco do well to make some folders from it, or not?

[The Mastiff]

It's pretty low performing in comparison to the better stainless steels we are used to here. It's not near Vg 10 in performance on knife edges IMO.

[bearfacedkiller]

It would only make sense in a budget knife but they already have 8cr13. I’m not too interested.

[Deadboxhero]

Some companies have used German 4116 series Stainless Steel for knife blades. What do you think of this steel and would Spyderco do well to make some folders from it, or not?

Nope. No good

[Daniel]

this is reportedly used in Victorinox knives. soft, but easy to sharpen

[kwselke]

I always thought it was a budget stainless similar to 420HC or 440A. I've got many knives with decent 400 series blade steel, but they are nothing to go out of your way to buy these days.

[Deadboxhero]

AEB-L get lumped in this this stuff but they are quite different.

People need to look at the difference in carbon and chromium. While it's easy to draw similarities that they are both low alloy stainless. The AEB-L can do MORE and has more options thanks to a better balance of C and Cr.

It's not that 4116 is absolutely garbage, it's just that everything else is just that much better.

[JonLeBlanc]

Never even heard of it lol

[Stuart Ackerman]

Similar to 420..

The graph below is in German, but readable none the less

http://www.metallograf.de/start.htm?wer ... 6/4116.htm

[vivi]

Great corrosion resistance and pretty tough for a stainless, but very low edge retention. My 4116 knives have shown worse edge retention than my 8Cr byrds.

[Stuart Ackerman]

Serrate 420 steel and use it as a yachting knife, and it might not be too bad.

[Doc Dan]

People who love Victorinox and other lives like that already are familiar with the performance characteristics. I see Cold Steel is using it. It is very corrosion resistant and easy to sharpen in the field. If you think about it, What you want a knife like that.It also does not chip as a rule. However given the right edge geometry it will cut for a very long time.

[JD Spydo]

At one time the Germans were known to be the metallurgists of the planet. But you just don't hear as much about their breakthrough blade steels like you used to. Now it's the Japanese and the USA that seem to have the market cornered on high performance supersteels.

Although recently I've read where the Swedes have come up with some pretty impressive blade steels. I've had two knives with Sandvik Steel and both were at least as good as VG-10 or slightly better.

With the growing popularity of knife collecting and using high end knives I look for the innovation of supersteels to really take off in the next 5 years or so.

[JacksonKnives]

1.4116 is a number used by Krupp, the DIN designation is X50CrMoV15. Some list the AISI designation as 425M, and the 5Cr15MoV name (from a British standard, I think?) should be more familiar to those of us who have worked with the popular new 8Cr steel coming out of China.

Larrin Thomas has a great breakdown of relevant effects of different carbon/chromium levels in his post about AEB-L.

The big problem with 4116 for performance is hardness. Standard heat treat in a kitchen knife only gets to RC 54 or 56 if you're lucky. Maybe some makers could go higher, but usually they'll go for a higher-carbon stainless if that's the intent.
Hardness isn't not the whole picture for performance, but most knives made with this stuff have edges that just roll over if you're cutting anything hard.
A chef can still pound through a soft chicken bone, but he's expecting to re-form the edge on a steel every time he uses the knife.

BD1N gets harder, and it's still fairly tough.
AEBL also gets harder, and is about as tough as stainless steel can possibly be.
14c28n from Sandvik is a little more stainless than AEB-L, without much of a compromise on hardness.

Of course, none of this means much unless the manufacturer is building a knife that takes advantage of it.

[Deadboxhero]

Larrin "Thomas"

1.4116 is a number used by Krupp, the DIN designation is X50CrMoV15. Some list the AISI designation as 425M, and the 5Cr15MoV name (from a British standard, I think?) should be more familiar to those of us who have worked with the popular new 8Cr steel coming out of China.

Larrin Martin has a great breakdown of relevant effects of different carbon/chromium levels in his post about AEB-L.

The big problem with 4116 for performance is hardness. Standard heat treat in a kitchen knife only gets to RC 54 or 56 if you're lucky. Maybe some makers could go higher, but usually they'll go for a higher-carbon stainless if that's the intent.
Hardness isn't not the whole picture for performance, but most knives made with this stuff have edges that just roll over if you're cutting anything hard.
A chef can still pound through a soft chicken bone, but he's expecting to re-form the edge on a steel every time he uses the knife.

BD1N gets harder, and it's still fairly tough.
AEBL also gets harder, and is about as tough as stainless steel can possibly be.
14c28n from Sandvik is a little more stainless than AEB-L, without much of a compromise on hardness.

Of course, none of this means much unless the manufacturer is building a knife that takes advantage of it.

[JacksonKnives]

Larrin "Thomas"

[:facepalm:]
Thanks! fixed.
The chances of knowing more than one guy named Larrin have got to be pretty slim, but sure enough I know two and it got me in trouble. I need to stop reading the forums before coffee either way. :o