Micro Bevel Matter?

[Bloke]

There well may be other threads on the topic but I tried something new today and thought I’d share. :rolleyes:

The primary bevel on my S30V Military is somewhere around 27deg (inclusive) I’d guesstimate, I’ve maintained it with a 40deg micro bevel for a while now and fair to say I’ve been happy.

I hadn’t touched it up for a while and thought I’d mix it up a bit today, so I put a pair of diamond rods in the SM’s 30deg slots and cut a new micro bevel which I finished with Medium rods again at 30deg and seeings as I was mixing things up, as the final finish again at 30deg ... two passes per side on the Fine rods and the obligatory strop on a girlie palm. Nothing earth shattering there.

The noticeable difference was how the knife “cut” and not because of my sharpening prowess. I’d love to say the blade is hair whittling sharp but it’s not plus it has a little chip from cutting a cat food can. :eek: Ah, hahaha! :D I’m just surprised at the difference the 30deg micro bevel has made.

I carry and use this knife most often and I always test edges on hardwood deadfall from the same trees so I have an idea of what to expect. I was playing with Gringo’s Waterway last weekend and that very same stick in the photo below as a matter of fact and took a few comparative cuts with the Military when it sported a 40deg micro and unless I’ve lost the plot the knife after today’s little tickle plain cuts better than I remember without being significantly “sharper”.

I remember quite a while back Evil D started a great thread with a video clip he made on edge geometry and today’s experience got me to thinking the micro bevel thing all over again because 10deg at the apex seems to make a notable difference in performance.

Anyhow, hope the community might like to share their experiences, views, pros and cons ... micro bevels? :)

[Tims]

I did the same to an Endura in vg10 today. Primary bevel at around 25 inclusive/ 30 micro bevel. Sure is sharp but remains to be seen how durable the edge is, I’m not holding my breath.
Out of interest, how many mm wide is your primary bevel? It may be the angle but I feel like mine is quite a bit wider

[Chris_P_Bacon]

Hey Bloke,
Can you carve a stick to resemble a birds head, an if it has any knots, use one for an eye. Then add some feather stick curls to give it a beard and sideburns?

O wait, nevermind....

[Bloke]

I did the same to an Endura in vg10 today. Primary bevel at around 25 inclusive/ 30 micro bevel. Sure is sharp but remains to be seen how durable the edge is, I’m not holding my breath.
Out of interest, how many mm wide is your primary bevel? It may be the angle but I feel like mine is quite a bit wider

Hey Tims, the bevel’s a bit over 2mm wide and I’d had a few drinks before starting the thread ... I could have structured the post better. :rolleyes:

I’ve only used a micro bevel for a couple of years. Primarily because of convenience and never gave it much thought. It was only because I know how the knife performed on the same bit of wood last week with a 40deg micro bevel and how it performs now that I’m questioning how I sharpen.

It’s no revelation that an acute angle out performs an obtuse angle but it’s something I never paid any mind with regard to micro bevels because I’d never noticed any deficiency in everyday mundane cutting with a pocket knife but the difference in cutting hardwood yesterday was quite an eye opener for me.

Anyhow, I’m sitting here thinking a pocket knife with a 40deg micro bevel on a 30deg or less primary bevel doesn’t seem to make as much sense as I thought it did. :confused:

Hey Bloke,
Can you carve a stick to resemble a birds head, an if it has any knots, use one for an eye. Then add some feather stick curls to give it a beard and sideburns?

O wait, nevermind....

That’s what I carved!

But, like I told Tims, I had a few pig’s ears yesterday so if you knit pick you’ll find a few minor anatomical discrepancies but still a fine bearded bird with sideburns, ay? :)

[rabbitanarchy14]

i actually take the factory edge off and only sharpen at 30 degree inclusive. no micro bevel. it feels sharper less resistance when cutting.

[The Meat man]

i actually take the factory edge off and only sharpen at 30 degree inclusive. no micro bevel. it feels sharper less resistance when cutting.

This is what I've found too. I like microbevels for their quick and easy touchups, but in using one, I find that I do sacrifice a certain amount of cutting performance too.

If I do use a microbevel, I much prefer to set one at 30 degrees than 40.

[FK]

I set the main bevel at 25 degrees inclusive on bench stone,,,, micro bevel at 30 degrees on Sharpmaker for fast touch up.

Regards,
FK

[Chris_P_Bacon]

girlie palm

Is that Aussie slang?

What does it mean?

[wrdwrght]

Is it not the purpose of a microbevel to protect the back one and thus prolong a working edge (as distinct from a risky hair-popping apex)?

Although I’ve free-handed to my satisfaction since Scouting a lifetime ago, I discovered that I get a long-lasting working edge much more quickly and precisely with the Sharpmaker’s back/micro settings.

Indeed, the Sharpmaker’s genius IMHO is in giving the uninitiated a bulletproof means to get a worthwhile edge AND a self-teaching chance to learn what that involves. Learning THAT is a great introduction to the freedom and the zen of free-handing whether with or without a microbevel.

[vivi]

Just make sure your microbevel is micro. If you apply a microbevel and notice a drop in cutting performance, chances are you made it too thick. If it looks wider than a small wire edge, you used too many strokes. I've seen a lot of photos of knives with two bevels ground into them. Those aren't microbeveled.

[Tims]

Just make sure your microbevel is micro. If you apply a microbevel and notice a drop in cutting performance, chances are you made it too thick. If it looks wider than a small wire edge, you used too many strokes. I've seen a lot of photos of knives with two bevels ground into them. Those aren't microbeveled.

I agree, which leads to the question of when/how often to reset the primary bevel? I guess it’s when you reach a level of performance you’re unhappy with.

This is the reason I don’t bother with polished primary bevels anymore. It’s too much work resetting and polishing a primary. 220 and done. Im sure theres some performance loss but not enough for me to care.

[vivi]

I agree. I leave the bevels coarse from my reprofiling stone and only polish the apex.

Part of the trick to using microbevels is to touch up using very few strokes. Doesn't take much to expose fresh steel when working with such a narrow strip.

[Bloke]

girlie palm

Is that Aussie slang?

What does it mean?

No slang there, m’ china plate. :)

I’ve worked in a office for nearly two decades and I have soft, manicured, “girlie” hands and strop on a “girlie” palm.

Is it not the purpose of a microbevel to protect the back one and thus prolong a working edge (as distinct from a risky hair-popping apex)?

Yes, I believe that is the theory, but for myself at least, I think I’m reinforcing edges that never needed reinforcement in the first place to the detriment of performance just because I have a SharpMaker and the general consensus seems to be set a primary bevel at 30deg and undo your good work by cutting a 40deg micro bevel. :confused:

All said, it works! In everyday knife use cutting our lunch etc. it doesn’t seem to matter plus it’s an easy way to achieve true hair whittling edges.

I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed but I can certainly see that as satisfying as hair whittling edges are off a 40deg micro bevel they can’t be as “sharp” as hair whittling edges off a 30deg primary bevel. Again, no profound revelation there just something I never thought about. :)

[Bloke]

Just make sure your microbevel is micro. If you apply a microbevel and notice a drop in cutting performance, chances are you made it too thick. If it looks wider than a small wire edge, you used too many strokes. I've seen a lot of photos of knives with two bevels ground into them. Those aren't microbeveled.

Certainly agree Vivi.

This isn’t the best picture but it’s how the micro bevel looked after a few strokes at 40deg on medium rods, touched up after cutting a tin of cat food. You can see a chip incurred when I let the knife slip while cut through the tin’s rim which is neither hear nor there.

The micro bevel wasn’t exactly micro after quite a few touch ups (and the blade would likely do with a full sharpen) but serviceable I’d say. :)

[Tdog]

I gotten to where I don't often use a micro bevel. Pretty much gone to the straight 30 degree inclusive and stopping around 400 to 600 grit. There are exceptions with some knives, but this keeps sharpening and maintenance simple. All my knives are kept sharp.

[Chris_P_Bacon]

Wanted to show a picture that'll help illustrate what you discovered (for anyone not fully wrapping their head around it).



At 30 degrees inclusive the edge is stable enough to not need a micro bevel, generally. Everyone's use is different. I take mine thinner and do not use or like micro bevels. Reason being, if you look at the space between the dashed line, and the solid line of the new cutting edge when adding a micro bevel. Two things have happened by adding that micro bevel.

A) Knife is duller

B) All that steel between the dashed and solid line (labeled secondary edge) is wasted.

[wrdwrght]

This diagram rather much exaggerates the steel loss, even if the principle is correct, no?

Micro does mean micro. LT Wright, who makes some pretty fine Scandi-grind bushcraft knives has actually admitted to putting microbevels on same. Sacrilege, some may say, but he means m-i-c-r-o, such that you can’t see it.

[Chris_P_Bacon]

I should of qualified it better. I was using the sharpmaker angles in my head 30 vs 40.

I'd imagine LT's edge is a degree or two (nano in comparison), not the 10 degrees difference you'd get with standard sharpmaker slots. Sorry for not making that clear above. But, I agree, even at those sharpmaker angles it is exaggerated but only for visual clarity sake.

[vivi]

Wanted to show a picture that'll help illustrate what you discovered (for anyone not fully wrapping their head around it).



At 30 degrees inclusive the edge is stable enough to not need a micro bevel, generally. Everyone's use is different. I take mine thinner and do not use or like micro bevels. Reason being, if you look at the space between the dashed line, and the solid line of the new cutting edge when adding a micro bevel. Two things have happened by adding that micro bevel.

A) Knife is duller

B) All that steel between the dashed and solid line (labeled secondary edge) is wasted.

That's not even close to a microbevel though.

A microbevel is making a good 15 degree per side edge, then doing 2 or 3 strokes at 20 degrees. Or whatever angles you want.

The picture above is a double bevel edge. Not a microbevel.

Microbevels are no bigger than a typical burr. If your microbevel is bigger, it isn't a microbevel.

See that very first dash in your diagram near the apex? That's waaaay further up the edge than any true microbevel would be.



Microbevels are no bigger than this. Zoom in to the edge where the focus is best and observe the light line along the edge. That's on the big side for one.

[Bloke]

Knife is duller

And there in the confusion confusion begins. :)

Off my modest collection of Spyders, at present the sharpest would have to be VG-10 Lum, ZDP-189 Stretch and HAP40 Delica, I s’pose because they all whittled free hanging hair when last sharpened.

The Delica has a 40deg micro bevel. The Lum and Stretch do not. Which is sharpest? :confused:

Perhaps a better question may be who notices or who even cares? Probably not normal people. Imagine walking up to someone at work and saying “I have here two knives. Both whittle hair but ...

They’d think you needed psychiatric assessment. :eek: Ah, hahaha, ah, hahaha, ah, hahaha!

Anyhow, I don’t know if there’s a quicker way than using a micro bevel to touch up an edge and I am pretty idle but I can’t see myself using a 40deg micro bevel anymore. :rolleyes: