"HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

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Ankerson
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Ankerson » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:27 pm

Banter 247 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:14 am
Ankerson wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:55 am
Banter 247 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:52 am
re: a knife dulling in 35 feet when properly sharpened— it was sharpened by a very experienced sharpener, for testing, using the same progression he uses for every test, and got about 9% as far as M390 tested at 62hrc. We have contacted the manufacturer, as the sample is one of multiples hit around 50hrc.

As for S30V vs M390, and whether I’d notice the difference: that’s my point. I do a lot of cutting. Comparing S30V at typical production ranges (58-60 hrc) and M390/20CV/204P at 60-62, yeah. The difference becomes appreciable. 58-60 vs 58-60? I’ve made the same argument myself, many times, and it’s why we’re here talking about running M390/20CV/204P at a range where it differentiates.

If it's at 50 HRC that's a problem. ;)

Yeah contact the maker.

But then another could be 62 HRC with a blown grain that will perform even worse than the 50 HRC blade.

There is much more to it than just the HRC number, you could fill books with all the variables on heat treating, and there are plenty of books on it.

Could also take a blades, both at 62 HRC, one HTed for better corrosion resistance or toughness than the other. ;)
Indeed. My point isn’t that hrc is the be all, end all. I’ve made it a specific point to highlight that it *isn’t* when talking about it, for exactly the reasons you list. Rather, my perspective is that it is *a* thing, as opposed to *the* thing.

HRC does matter, but so does everything else. ;)

The HRC number alone isn't really enough to put all the eggs in.
Last edited by Ankerson on Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:28 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:22 pm


In testing yes... that's actual measured testing using a known format that has repeatable results and narrows down the variables.

In real world use?

Not so much depending, not enough that the other variables wouldn't make a larger difference affecting the perception of performance
.

M390 costs more money for the raw steel, that's why the knives cost more.
This! Most of us understand this but this is what people newer to the hobby or newer to boutique steels need to understand.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Ankerson » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:31 pm

bearfacedkiller wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:28 pm
Ankerson wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:22 pm


In testing yes... that's actual measured testing using a known format that has repeatable results and narrows down the variables.

In real world use?

Not so much depending, not enough that the other variables wouldn't make a larger difference affecting the perception of performance
.

M390 costs more money for the raw steel, that's why the knives cost more.
This! Most of us understand this but this is what people newer to the hobby or newer to boutique steels need to understand.

Yeah, it's not new.

We aren't talking about Digital cameras here or lenses were spending MORE does actually get you MORE. ;)

When you spend $400 on a DSLC and lens don't expect it to perform as well as a DSLC and lens that costs $2000.

That's just not going to happen in the real world.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Banter 247 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:43 pm

The “variables” piece has been a stop sign talking point for years, but the mechanism for it has effectively been, “X factor matters less than Y and Z, so forget about X.” The problem there is that X, Y, and Z -> best result.

Also, nobody, at all, is suggesting that X is a greater factor than Y or Z, we’re saying that we *also* want X.

Given that we’re paying for it, I submit that it’s a reasonable request.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Ankerson » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:46 pm

Banter 247 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:43 pm
The “variables” piece has been a stop sign talking point for years, but the mechanism for it has effectively been, “X factor matters less than Y and Z, so forget about X.” The problem there is that X, Y, and Z -> best result.

Also, nobody, at all, is suggesting that X is a greater factor than Y or Z, we’re saying that we *also* want X.

Given that we’re paying for it, I submit that it’s a reasonable request.

There is no X without taking into count all of the variables and there are a lot of them and they can make massive differences.

There is no way around it, that's why it keeps being the main point.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Banter 247 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:02 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:46 pm
Banter 247 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:43 pm
The “variables” piece has been a stop sign talking point for years, but the mechanism for it has effectively been, “X factor matters less than Y and Z, so forget about X.” The problem there is that X, Y, and Z -> best result.

Also, nobody, at all, is suggesting that X is a greater factor than Y or Z, we’re saying that we *also* want X.

Given that we’re paying for it, I submit that it’s a reasonable request.

There is no X without taking into count all of the variables and there are a lot of them and they can make massive differences.

There is no way around it, that's why it keeps being the main point.
I can’t help but feel that we’re talking past each other a bit.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby ZrowsN1s » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:08 pm

In reading some of this thread maybe the conversation the knife community needs to have is.....

There's no compelling reason to use M390 over S30V in production knives. There's not an appreciable difference between 'Production' (not custom) M390 and S30V, and M390 is more expensive for raw materials, so why not use S30V and save money?

I think the problem may be one of expectation. People expect M390 to perform noticeably better. If it won't people need to know that so they can spend their money wiser, and perhaps get a 'Production' steel the WILL perform better than S30V.
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby ferider » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:27 pm

ZrowsN1s wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:08 pm
There's no compelling reason to use M390 over S30V in production knives. There's not an appreciable difference between 'Production' (not custom) M390 and S30V, and M390 is more expensive for raw materials, so why not use S30V and save money?

Actually there is, if you stop looking at hardness and wear resistance only.

For HRC > 60, M390 is the toughest stainless steel out there, in Spyderco knives at least. And I'm not talking about pry-bar use, but chipping, running into metal or bone when cutting something, etc. If you like Cruwear but want stainless, M390/20CV/204p is a good pick.

Roland.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Spook410 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:10 pm

Some of us read but don't know. That's OK. I'm certainly one of them. We do get excited about super steels and that's what we want. We seek rankings. And tests (which sometimes are quite well done). It's all part of the enthusiasm we have for the hobby. We grew up with some awful steel and now we have all this great stuff to choose from. And sometimes you do see differences in practice. Maxamet Mule vs. a mountain of cardboard after a move for instance. Amazing steel.

I'm sure that proper M390 will, in real life, not make much difference versus S30V. Not in any way I'll use it. Fine. But it's still fun to try high end steel. I think the Mule program showed us that. There are few on this forum that actually need another knife. We just want them. And fancy steels are interesting. There really isn't any justification needed beyond that.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:26 pm

ferider wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:27 pm

Actually there is, if you stop looking at hardness and wear resistance only.

For HRC > 60, M390 is the toughest stainless steel out there, in Spyderco knives at least. And I'm not talking about pry-bar use, but chipping, running into metal or bone when cutting something, etc. If you like Cruwear but want stainless, M390/20CV/204p is a good pick.

Roland.
What leads you to believe that the M390 family is the toughest stainless steel available when comparing steels run over 60HRC? It is hard to get scientific data on this and most data is anecdotal. Charpy testing does not translate well to knife edges. I would think CPM154/rwl34, XHP, Elmax and even the ingot steels like BD1N and VG10 would be tougher. H1 defintely is but it isn't at 60 in plain edge.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby ferider » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:43 pm

bearfacedkiller wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:26 pm
What leads you to believe that the M390 family is the toughest stainless steel available when comparing steels run over 60HRC? It is hard to get scientific data on this and most data is anecdotal. Charpy testing does not translate well to knife edges. I would think CPM154/rwl34, XHP, Elmax and even the ingot steels like BD1N and VG10 would be tougher. H1 defintely is but it isn't at 60 in plain edge.
My own use and Knifesteelnerds/BF/Larrin's recent efforts https://knifesteelnerds.com/how-you-can-help

Remember, I said Spyderco. Basically only s30v, s35vn, XHP, M390/20CV/204p, s90v, and s110v are available in stainless for my favorite platforms. I love XHP (only used it in the kitchen until now), but haven't stressed my XHP Spydercos enough to have a feeling for their toughness yet. I wish Spyderco would come out with Manix, Military or PM2 in CPM 154. I have a 154CM Manix2 but it feels softer than 60 HRC. My single Elmax knife (different brand / Real Steel) rusts pretty easily, BTW.

Roland.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:59 pm

ferider wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:43 pm
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:26 pm
What leads you to believe that the M390 family is the toughest stainless steel available when comparing steels run over 60HRC? It is hard to get scientific data on this and most data is anecdotal. Charpy testing does not translate well to knife edges. I would think CPM154/rwl34, XHP, Elmax and even the ingot steels like BD1N and VG10 would be tougher. H1 defintely is but it isn't at 60 in plain edge.
My own use and Knifesteelnerds/BF/Larrin's recent efforts https://knifesteelnerds.com/how-you-can-help

Remember, I said Spyderco. Basically only s30v, s35vn, XHP, M390/20CV/204p, s90v, and s110v are available in stainless for my favorite platforms. I love XHP (only used it in the kitchen until now), but haven't stressed my XHP Spydercos enough to have a feeling for their toughness yet. I wish Spyderco would come out with Manix, Military or PM2 in CPM 154. I have a 154CM Manix2 but it feels softer than 60 HRC. My single Elmax knife (different brand / Real Steel) rusts pretty easily, BTW.

Roland.
Thanks for sharing. I agree that we should see some CPM154 in the popular models. I have neglected my Lionspy quite a bit and have had no corrosion.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Pelagic » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:36 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:22 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:50 am
Ankerson wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:17 am
Pelagic wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:13 am
Big Brown Bear has made some comments about 64HRC not being out of range for m390, assuming it still has adequate strength/stability. I'm no metallurgist but I believe that is far out of s30v's capacity. I could be wrong. But the whole thing is bringing out this steel's potential. Partially because of its cost and the hype surrounding it.

In customs.... Done by a maker who does their own heat treating making one blade at a time and really knows what they are doing and can thread the needle. Assuming that's it's a batch of steel that can actually be taken to 64 HRC.

That's apples and oranges however.

You can't compare customs to production blades.

Spyderco is very picky about their heat treating and performance of their knives so yes they will actually perform well, better than most normally.

Sal and Eric are very stiff necked about what they want out of their knives.

They do extensive testing BEFORE the models are released. ;)
I agree with all that. I wasn't trying to make a production vs custom comparison. I was under the impression that usually, if m390 is better than s30v when both have optimal heat treats, then m390 should be better than s30v on a production level as well (oranges vs oranges as to apples vs apples). But apparently they are far to similar to warrant the difference in price we see in the knife world??

In testing yes... that's actual measured testing using a known format that has repeatable results and narrows down the variables.

In real world use?

Not so much depending, not enough that the other variables wouldn't make a larger difference affecting the perception of performance.

M390 costs more money for the raw steel, that's why the knives cost more.
While I know who you are and realize all the great things you've done for the community, what would you consider a significant difference? The performance between s30v and 10v? S90v and 10V? H1 and REX 121? Because "real world" difference only means so much when you're speaking to people that do an extreme amount of cutting for a living. And some of the people here fit that description.
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Ankerson » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:52 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:36 pm
Ankerson wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:22 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:50 am
Ankerson wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:17 am



In customs.... Done by a maker who does their own heat treating making one blade at a time and really knows what they are doing and can thread the needle. Assuming that's it's a batch of steel that can actually be taken to 64 HRC.

That's apples and oranges however.

You can't compare customs to production blades.

Spyderco is very picky about their heat treating and performance of their knives so yes they will actually perform well, better than most normally.

Sal and Eric are very stiff necked about what they want out of their knives.

They do extensive testing BEFORE the models are released. ;)
I agree with all that. I wasn't trying to make a production vs custom comparison. I was under the impression that usually, if m390 is better than s30v when both have optimal heat treats, then m390 should be better than s30v on a production level as well (oranges vs oranges as to apples vs apples). But apparently they are far to similar to warrant the difference in price we see in the knife world??

In testing yes... that's actual measured testing using a known format that has repeatable results and narrows down the variables.

In real world use?

Not so much depending, not enough that the other variables wouldn't make a larger difference affecting the perception of performance.

M390 costs more money for the raw steel, that's why the knives cost more.
While I know who you are and realize all the great things you've done for the community, what would you consider a significant difference? The performance between s30v and 10v? S90v and 10V? H1 and REX 121? Because "real world" difference only means so much when you're speaking to people that do an extreme amount of cutting for a living. And some of the people here fit that description.

That would mean the next level up from the mid range steels.

10V, S90V, S110V, K390 etc.

That's if you want to see a large difference when they do a lot of cutting.

I do believe the mid range steels make for better all around EDC's however. Hard to beat the S30V Military or PM2.

That said my main EDC is in S35VN.

The mid range steels are more forgiving and easier to sharpen for most people also.

There are still variables however and one of the biggest is edge finish, for those who use polished edges they are leaving a lot of performance on the table no matter what steel they are using. I have seen more than 400% difference in polished and coarse edge performance using the same blades in testing.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Ankerson » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:28 pm

bearfacedkiller wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:26 pm
ferider wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:27 pm

Actually there is, if you stop looking at hardness and wear resistance only.

For HRC > 60, M390 is the toughest stainless steel out there, in Spyderco knives at least. And I'm not talking about pry-bar use, but chipping, running into metal or bone when cutting something, etc. If you like Cruwear but want stainless, M390/20CV/204p is a good pick.

Roland.
What leads you to believe that the M390 family is the toughest stainless steel available when comparing steels run over 60HRC? It is hard to get scientific data on this and most data is anecdotal. Charpy testing does not translate well to knife edges. I would think CPM154/rwl34, XHP, Elmax and even the ingot steels like BD1N and VG10 would be tougher. H1 defintely is but it isn't at 60 in plain edge.

This. ^^^^^^^ :)

Charpy testing is all but useless when talking about knife edges in general.

I have pounded S30V through nails without damage while I have seen CPM 3V chip. ;)

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Pelagic » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:32 pm

Jim, I agree with everything you said. I'm just not convinced s30v and m390 should be equal in performance in any setting. And yes, I do believe that the difference should be noticeable in actual use.
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Ankerson » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:35 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:32 pm
Jim, I agree with everything you said. I'm just not convinced s30v and m390 should be equal in performance in any setting. And yes, I do believe that the difference should be noticeable in actual use.
Depends.

Maybe.

You would have to cut a lot of cardboard, and I mean a lot of it to see any sort of real difference between them.

Thousands of linear feet and I am not kidding.

I never said they are equal because they aren't.

I said they are very close, close enough that it can be hard to see the difference between them in actual real world use.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:49 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:35 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:32 pm
Jim, I agree with everything you said. I'm just not convinced s30v and m390 should be equal in performance in any setting. And yes, I do believe that the difference should be noticeable in actual use.
Depends.

Maybe.

You would have to cut a lot of cardboard, and I mean a lot of it to see any sort of real difference between them.

Thousands of linear feet and I am not kidding.

I never said they are equal because they aren't.

I said they are very close, close enough that it can be hard to see the difference between them in actual real world use.
That's why I've never had a problem buying a knife that appeals to me, maybe the color or design of it...even if it has "boring old S30V, or something less" I use my knives daily, working in a warehouse as well as yard work and camping. Not to put anybody down or trying to ruffle any feathers, but I think I use my knives more than a lot of others around here, most likely because I have the opportunity to do so because of work and hobbies.

I've tried all sorts of steels, and I bet if you stamped M390 or 20CV on a blade that's S30V...I'd never notice a difference in performance, probably just sharpening once it gets to a fairly dull blade. Most people just want the new, "it" steel to add to their collection, though there is nothing wrong with that. Just grinds my gears when people shoot down S30V and only want the latest and greatest steel because S30V doesn't suffice for their needs...I call BS!
Currently have 18 :spyder: 's in 14 different steels.

-Rick

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Pelagic » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:34 pm

The truth really doesn't matter. It's what the general consensus is. Otherwise m390 wouldn't be an expensive steel and we would have been paying almost the same price for s30v all this time.

The point of this thread however is to show that the truth actually does matter, or at least should in the future.
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Ankerson » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:10 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:34 pm
The truth really doesn't matter. It's what the general consensus is. Otherwise m390 wouldn't be an expensive steel and we would have been paying almost the same price for s30v all this time.

The point of this thread however is to show that the truth actually does matter, or at least should in the future.

The TRUTH always matters. ;)

M390 knives cost more because the steel itself costs more, no getting around that one.

The general consensus is what it may be, but that doesn't mean that it's correct or even close to being correct.

If you lose the truth then you lose everything in the end.


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