"HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

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Naperville
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Naperville » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:25 pm

zhyla wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:05 pm
Naperville wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:34 pm
NO, it did not work well, and Super Steel Steve bent the beans out of it. It's garbage.
So what would change if Benchmade claimed it was 62 Rc? It’s still garbage.
The knife that Benchmade put out was not designed properly and they used a steel for marketing purposes. There are a lot of discussion regarding this knife, and everyone agrees that for a folder it should have been around 60HRC and had steel liners.

I look at this as if they used 20CV, and had an HRC of 56 too... they would also have been using 20CV for marketing purposes and selling junk.

There should be some accountability.
Spyderco Collection: Military S110V, Bob Lum Darn Dao, Yojimbo 2 (ONE) S30V & (TWO) CF 20CV, Sustain, Native 5 Maxamet, Jumpmaster 2. SHORT LIST: CF Shaman in S90V; Province.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Pelagic » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:34 am

zhyla wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:05 pm
Naperville wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:34 pm
NO, it did not work well, and Super Steel Steve bent the beans out of it. It's garbage.
So what would change if Benchmade claimed it was 62 Rc? It’s still garbage.
I don't know about "claiming" 62HRC, but if they actually took it to 62HRC correctly, that would be a much different knife than one at 56HRC.
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Banter 247 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:30 am

zhyla wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:45 pm
Naperville wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:51 pm
zhyla wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:32 pm
The last thing we need is an Rc arms race.

I don’t have the faintest clue what Rc any of my Spyderco knives are. Somehow they all work great.
Are you saying that you would be fine with a Benchmade folder in 3V with an HRC of 56? That is what started these discussions two weeks ago.
Does it work well? Then yes.
“Work well” means different things, to different people. In addition to Steve bending the blade and breaking the handle, he also did an edge retention test with it. Taped off 1” section, his standard edge finish for testing, etc. When Steve tests, he uses two marks— fine edge is defined as losing its ability to shave arm hair, working edge means dulling or a catch forming have caused the knife to stop cleanly cutting paper. Sounds very backyard, but it turns out, it yields a lot of predictable, repeatable results.

The 3V at 56hrc did about 112 feet fine edge, and an additional 0 feet of working edge. The same thing happened in that test with an Emerson in 154cm at 56 or 57 hrc, at 107 feet.

58+ should really be a baseline expectation with many steels. Not all steels behave the same, of course, so... LC200N, for example, is very good with a good process to land at 58. But, for the most part, sub-58 is hot garbage.

So... who really cares, right? Who’s going to notice? It’s not uncommon for me to cut 100+ feet of cardboard, 30+ zip ties, and 20+ plastic banding straps in a couple hours at work. This is part of why I became interested in these things. That 56hrc 3V? I’d crash the apex a couple hours into my day. Remember also that sharpening = removing material, and removing material = thickening the knife up behind the edge. You also spend time doing so.

This is all 100% about ownership experience.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Pelagic » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:26 am

Banter 247 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:30 am
zhyla wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:45 pm
Naperville wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:51 pm
zhyla wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:32 pm
The last thing we need is an Rc arms race.

I don’t have the faintest clue what Rc any of my Spyderco knives are. Somehow they all work great.
Are you saying that you would be fine with a Benchmade folder in 3V with an HRC of 56? That is what started these discussions two weeks ago.
Does it work well? Then yes.
“Work well” means different things, to different people. In addition to Steve bending the blade and breaking the handle, he also did an edge retention test with it. Taped off 1” section, his standard edge finish for testing, etc. When Steve tests, he uses two marks— fine edge is defined as losing its ability to shave arm hair, working edge means dulling or a catch forming have caused the knife to stop cleanly cutting paper. Sounds very backyard, but it turns out, it yields a lot of predictable, repeatable results.

The 3V at 56hrc did about 112 feet fine edge, and an additional 0 feet of working edge. The same thing happened in that test with an Emerson in 154cm at 56 or 57 hrc, at 107 feet.

58+ should really be a baseline expectation with many steels. Not all steels behave the same, of course, so... LC200N, for example, is very good with a good process to land at 58. But, for the most part, sub-58 is hot garbage.

So... who really cares, right? Who’s going to notice? It’s not uncommon for me to cut 100+ feet of cardboard, 30+ zip ties, and 20+ plastic banding straps in a couple hours at work. This is part of why I became interested in these things. That 56hrc 3V? I’d crash the apex a couple hours into my day. Remember also that sharpening = removing material, and removing material = thickening the knife up behind the edge. You also spend time doing so.

This is all 100% about ownership experience.
Thank you for making an account here. I highly value your input.
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby demoncase » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:26 am

Perhaps a controversial point- If every single knife maker listed the HRC result for their knives: would we be obliged to believe them?
Would that data add any more trust in the product?

I know I can rely on Spyderco to deliver true data- because that's the way they play the game.
Can't say that for everyone in the game....
If we change the rules that everyone releases HRC for every knife- are we really sure that's what we've got?...
There's a small number of folks willing to do tests and experiments- most of us don't have access to hardness testing kit to directly measure the result

We started off with the concept of HRC being the 'megapixels of knives'
I feel it's more likely to end up being the 'Miles per gallon of knives'- "Yeah, I know it says 65HRC in the catalogue but mine cuts like it's 55HRC, y'know?"
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Naperville » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:46 am

demoncase wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:26 am
Perhaps a controversial point- If every single knife maker listed the HRC result for their knives: would we be obliged to believe them?
Would that data add any more trust in the product?

I know I can rely on Spyderco to deliver true data- because that's the way they play the game.
Can't say that for everyone in the game....
If we change the rules that everyone releases HRC for every knife- are we really sure that's what we've got?...
There's a small number of folks willing to do tests and experiments- most of us don't have access to hardness testing kit to directly measure the result

We started off with the concept of HRC being the 'megapixels of knives'
I feel it's more likely to end up being the 'Miles per gallon of knives'- "Yeah, I know it says 65HRC in the catalogue but mine cuts like it's 55HRC, y'know?"
Lets say company Fi markets a blade steel of 3V at 58 to 60, and the community finds that acceptable to purchase. Now mind you, Fi has to study what a good HT/HRC would be for the numbers to be acceptable. If Fi says they are going to produce 3V knives at 55 to 57, people will rant and rave on the forums that it's garbage.

If your knife or a dozen knives from different batches test within 58 to 60, you're probably OK. If your knife refuses to cut, and you test it and it comes up 56, you have a legit claim for a new knife.
Spyderco Collection: Military S110V, Bob Lum Darn Dao, Yojimbo 2 (ONE) S30V & (TWO) CF 20CV, Sustain, Native 5 Maxamet, Jumpmaster 2. SHORT LIST: CF Shaman in S90V; Province.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Pelagic » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:52 am

A ballpark figure is always nice. I've always appreciated Sal's posts revealing the HRC of protos. I don't hold spyderco to that exact number either. He is just giving us a data point. I hope most people understand that and just take it for what it is. Having a ballpark idea is very nice.
Last edited by Pelagic on Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Are you a magician? :eek:
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You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
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Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Banter 247 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:27 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:52 am
I ballpark figure is always nice. I've always appreciated Sal's posts revealing the HRC of protos. I don't hold spyderco to that exact number either. He is just giving us a data point. I hope most people understand that and just take it for what it is. Having a ballpark idea is very nice.
Re: ballpark: YES. They can give you a good idea if the maker’s direction with the product makes sense, or not.

Since some makers don’t do that, we’re happy to.

Also, thank you for the kind words, Pelagic. I appreciate it.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby jpm2 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:23 pm

Banter 247 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:27 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:52 am
I ballpark figure is always nice. I've always appreciated Sal's posts revealing the HRC of protos. I don't hold spyderco to that exact number either. He is just giving us a data point. I hope most people understand that and just take it for what it is. Having a ballpark idea is very nice.
Re: ballpark: YES. They can give you a good idea if the maker’s direction with the product makes sense, or not.

Since some makers don’t do that, we’re happy to.

Also, thank you for the kind words, Pelagic. I appreciate it.
I echo Pelagic's sentiment.
It doesn't really matter to me if the makers list expected hrc or not, what does matter is independent and transparent testing, thanks.
The work of yourself and the others involved make it possible to at least get a bar for what can be expected in a production environment when it comes to +/- hrc tolerances, and who holds that bar. Combine that with type of steel and my user experience, it's another useful data point for us consumers with performance expectations.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Naperville » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:57 pm

Spyderco Collection: Military S110V, Bob Lum Darn Dao, Yojimbo 2 (ONE) S30V & (TWO) CF 20CV, Sustain, Native 5 Maxamet, Jumpmaster 2. SHORT LIST: CF Shaman in S90V; Province.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:39 am

That pretty much sums it up. LTK and the people in his group are doing a huge service to the community.

No one is claiming HRC is everything. Like LTK said, you CAN have bad cut tests results with high hardness. But acting like HRC is irrelevant is beyond disingenuous. While Buck pretty much nails their HT on 420HC, there's no excuse for it outperforming ANY M390 in any blade.

While this whole thing is more serious (to some of us) than the masses will ever realize, it was bound to happen, and I'm not THAT surprised. M390 is extremely popular, and lots of companies are doing runs of it. Not all of them really specialize in M390 either. Of course they want to deliver a quality product, as they value their reputation, but the most important thing is that "M390" is stamped on the blade. What DOES surprise me is the amount of people placing so much value on the steel manufacturer's HT and HRC specs, which are often not meant for cutlery use. But as I said before I really think all of this will change. As knowledge of these concepts becomes more widespread, popularity and demand follows, and with demand comes supply.
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Ankerson » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:56 am

Banter 247 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:30 am


So... who really cares, right? Who’s going to notice? It’s not uncommon for me to cut 100+ feet of cardboard, 30+ zip ties, and 20+ plastic banding straps in a couple hours at work. This is part of why I became interested in these things. That 56hrc 3V? I’d crash the apex a couple hours into my day. Remember also that sharpening = removing material, and removing material = thickening the knife up behind the edge. You also spend time doing so.

This is all 100% about ownership experience.

I used to use my knives a lot at work cutting the same things you do.

I carried a lot of different knives over time, and in different steels including CRK's.

I said then and still say now that it's hard to beat the Military in S30V overall, it is the best work knife I ever used at work period hands down IMO.

(I do believe that the S110V Military would be the best to use however based on my testing and use)

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby ferider » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:52 am

Banter 247 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:27 pm
Since some makers don’t do that, we’re happy to.
I echo what others said, the tests that you guys do are very valuable and appreciated.

I do have two questions in addition, to you, BBB, Ankerson, or any other of you knife makers and testing/steel gurus:

1) what do you think is a reasonable HRC standard variation that a production maker can achieve. For example for M390, optimal mean HRC value might be HRC 62, with a sigma of +- 1 ? Since it sounds like M390/20CV/204p HRC sensitivity to HT is larger than for some other steels, a reasonable standard variation should be larger, too, correct ?
2) what's the optimal knife HRC for CPM s90v ? (asking, just because I like it as a user)

Thanks,

Roland.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Ankerson » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:30 am

ferider wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:52 am
Banter 247 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:27 pm
Since some makers don’t do that, we’re happy to.
I echo what others said, the tests that you guys do are very valuable and appreciated.

I do have two questions in addition, to you, BBB, Ankerson, or any other of you knife makers and testing/steel gurus:

1) what do you think is a reasonable HRC standard variation that a production maker can achieve. For example for M390, optimal mean HRC value might be HRC 62, with a sigma of +- 1 ? Since it sounds like M390/20CV/204p HRC sensitivity to HT is larger than for some other steels, a reasonable standard variation should be larger, too, correct ?
2) what's the optimal knife HRC for CPM s90v ? (asking, just because I like it as a user)

Thanks,

Roland.

Reasonable would depend on who is doing the heat treating and what the Company says that it wants and if it's actually obtainable in a production setting. And if the actual HT is worth a crap when the Company tests it.

That will vary greatly depending on the variables.

Optimal would depend on the actual knife in question and that will also vary.

So the answer is that it depends.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby ferider » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:35 am

Ankerson wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:30 am
Reasonable would depend on who is doing the heat treating and what the Company says that it wants and if it's actually obtainable in a production setting. And if the actual HT is worth a crap when the Company tests it.

That will vary greatly depending on the variables.

Optimal would depend on the actual knife in question and that will also vary.

So the answer is that it depends.
Thanks. Still, people are very vocal about optimal M390 HRC being - say - around 62. And Spyderco obviously can achieve it. So for a company that you trust in doing good HT (for production knives), and achieving good HRC to optimize a knife's performance, which standard deviation is acceptable to you ? How large does it have to go to become "crap" ? Must be some number, as even Spyderco can not crank out thousands of knives all at 62.0 HRC flat.

Speaking as an engineer, I would think that the HRC stddev is the true metric of the maker's manufacturing quality. So what should it be for a good maker ?

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby bluntcut » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:09 am

Almost rhetorical questions because companies/mfg obviously take the Fifth and custom makers keyboard whistling about production ht. Nevertheless my 2cents extrapolation & wag (Based on what I know (read & watch public info on production ht), plus done a few custom ht on various steels myself)

Oven/furnace to quench time window is wide for air hardening m390/204p/20cv and many others, so travel/transition time is a neglectable factor negatively affecting hardness. From my experience with conventional m390 ht, edge stability is poor - start around 62.5rc upward. 20cv edge unstable at 63+rc. Make sense for production to aim for cost-effective ht yield within 60-61rc range (leaving +-1rc outlier as 3rd sigma delta for buffer, +-2rc outlier as 4th sigma delta for cs&return). could translate to - this yield specs would increase production cost by 5-15% , support by 3-5%. So might reflect 20% increase in list price.

btw - My ht rejects M390/204p/20cv at or below 63rc tempered, i.e. must be at least 65rc untempered.
ferider wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:35 am
...
Thanks. Still, people are very vocal about optimal M390 HRC being - say - around 62. And Spyderco obviously can achieve it. So for a company that you trust in doing good HT (for production knives), and achieving good HRC to optimize a knife's performance, which standard deviation is acceptable to you ? How large does it have to go to become "crap" ? Must be some number, as even Spyderco can not crank out thousands of knives all at 62.0 HRC flat.

Speaking as an engineer, I would think that the HRC stddev is the true metric of the maker's manufacturing quality. So what should it be for a good maker ?

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby ferider » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:21 am

bluntcut wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:09 am
Almost rhetorical questions because companies/mfg obviously take the Fifth and custom makers keyboard whistling about production ht. Nevertheless my 2cents extrapolation & wag (Based on what I know (read & watch public info on production ht), plus done a few custom ht on various steels myself)
: : :
Wow. Thank you much for your detailed answer ! Exactly what I was looking for.

How do you HT s90v, if you use that steel ?

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby bluntcut » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:32 am

Same ht protocol for s90v, m390/204p/20cv, s110v target yield 64+rc tempered. Similar edge stability for them. Edge stability = 600 diamond grits; 15dps reasonable control/technique cut rope, whittle soft+hard woods, bone contacts w/o visible under 4x loupe.
ferider wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:21 am
bluntcut wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:09 am
Almost rhetorical questions because companies/mfg obviously take the Fifth and custom makers keyboard whistling about production ht. Nevertheless my 2cents extrapolation & wag (Based on what I know (read & watch public info on production ht), plus done a few custom ht on various steels myself)
: : :
Wow. Thank you much for your detailed answer ! Exactly what I was looking for.

How do you HT s90v, if you use that steel ?

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby wrdwrght » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:36 am

This thread has sure taken a turn for the better.
Marc (a Knife Rights donor)

RECENT ARRIVAL: S90V Shaman. ON RADAR: Maxamet PM2; “Crucarta” Shaman; Enuff Salt sheepsfoot; Roadie. IN DREAMS: K390 Military2 stop-lock; 4V Native Chief; Slysz Swayback; Anso Rock Lobster; Nishijin “R”; C27 serrated Jess Horn.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby ferider » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:18 pm

bluntcut wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:32 am
Same ht protocol for s90v, m390/204p/20cv, s110v target yield 64+rc tempered. Similar edge stability for them. Edge stability = 600 diamond grits; 15dps reasonable control/technique cut rope, whittle soft+hard woods, bone contacts w/o visible under 4x loupe.
ferider wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:21 am
How do you HT s90v, if you use that steel ?
Thanks again ! Given Larrin's numbers on corrosion resistance (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82616), sounds like with your heat-treat, same grit and geomtery, s90v and m390/204p/20cv turn out to be very similar steels for the user, would you agree ?

Roland.


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