"HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
zhyla
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby zhyla » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:32 pm

The last thing we need is an Rc arms race.

I don’t have the faintest clue what Rc any of my Spyderco knives are. Somehow they all work great.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Naperville » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:50 pm

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:15 pm
I don't mean to call you out, or sound rude in any way...but I read earlier in another thread you posted in, that you don't use your knives, you only keep them handy for self defense.

If that's the case, I question why HRC would even matter to you, and why you would have invested in over $20,000 worth of knives? That's an honest question.
The target HT and HRC depends on the event. I buy knives that I see fitting in to my collection for a perceived need. Knives are just tools.

If the need arises I have knives that I can use for bushcraft, camping, or survivalism.

I do have knives for self defense, the right hardness and HRC come in to play with them too, just as blade shape and PE or SE does. You need to know what time of the year it is and what clothing you will be expected to cut through. During the Summer a SE may not be beneficial, as people are wearing light or no jacket at all. During the Winter the offender may be wearing a thick leather coat over a hoodie and a t-shirt...so a 1.5 inch bladed knife would be useless.

You have to have knives for every situation. If the HT is bad, why would I expect the knife to function when I go to use it?
Spyderco Collection: Military S110V, Bob Lum Darn Dao, Yojimbo 2 (ONE) S30V & (TWO) CF 20CV, Sustain, Native 5 Maxamet, Jumpmaster 2. SHORT LIST: CF Shaman in S90V; Province.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Naperville » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:51 pm

zhyla wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:32 pm
The last thing we need is an Rc arms race.

I don’t have the faintest clue what Rc any of my Spyderco knives are. Somehow they all work great.
Are you saying that you would be fine with a Benchmade folder in 3V with an HRC of 56? That is what started these discussions two weeks ago.
Spyderco Collection: Military S110V, Bob Lum Darn Dao, Yojimbo 2 (ONE) S30V & (TWO) CF 20CV, Sustain, Native 5 Maxamet, Jumpmaster 2. SHORT LIST: CF Shaman in S90V; Province.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Vivi » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:53 pm

Even a toothbrush makes a formidable shank in the right hands.

I'd have to agree that if you don't use your knives it seems strange to worry about a few rc points. You don't need boutique heat treatments to pierce flesh with something pointy.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Naperville » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:09 pm

Vivi wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:53 pm
Even a toothbrush makes a formidable shank in the right hands.

I'd have to agree that if you don't use your knives it seems strange to worry about a few rc points. You don't need boutique heat treatments to pierce flesh with something pointy.
Daggers are illegal in Illinois. I have a few and cannot legally carry any of them.

When looking for a weapon, I look for nothing but the best. My life depends on it. When people carry firearms, they also debate about stopping power and what clothing the target happens to be wearing. Same principles apply to knives.
Spyderco Collection: Military S110V, Bob Lum Darn Dao, Yojimbo 2 (ONE) S30V & (TWO) CF 20CV, Sustain, Native 5 Maxamet, Jumpmaster 2. SHORT LIST: CF Shaman in S90V; Province.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Vivi » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:52 pm

Naperville wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:09 pm
Vivi wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:53 pm
Even a toothbrush makes a formidable shank in the right hands.

I'd have to agree that if you don't use your knives it seems strange to worry about a few rc points. You don't need boutique heat treatments to pierce flesh with something pointy.
Daggers are illegal in Illinois. I have a few and cannot legally carry any of them.

When looking for a weapon, I look for nothing but the best. My life depends on it. When people carry firearms, they also debate about stopping power and what clothing the target happens to be wearing. Same principles apply to knives.
Do you test the heat treat on your glocks and the weight of each round of ammo?

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Naperville » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:04 pm

Vivi wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:52 pm
Naperville wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:09 pm
Vivi wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:53 pm
Even a toothbrush makes a formidable shank in the right hands.

I'd have to agree that if you don't use your knives it seems strange to worry about a few rc points. You don't need boutique heat treatments to pierce flesh with something pointy.
Daggers are illegal in Illinois. I have a few and cannot legally carry any of them.

When looking for a weapon, I look for nothing but the best. My life depends on it. When people carry firearms, they also debate about stopping power and what clothing the target happens to be wearing. Same principles apply to knives.
Do you test the heat treat on your glocks and the weight of each round of ammo?
I use to own approx a dozen firearms, now I own none. I sold them when I moved to Silicon Valley. But yes, I bought ammo that would do the most damage to anything that needed to be removed: Cor-Bon high velocity rounds, Black Talon rounds, sabot shotgun rounds....
Spyderco Collection: Military S110V, Bob Lum Darn Dao, Yojimbo 2 (ONE) S30V & (TWO) CF 20CV, Sustain, Native 5 Maxamet, Jumpmaster 2. SHORT LIST: CF Shaman in S90V; Province.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Vivi » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:07 pm

Naperville wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:04 pm
Vivi wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:52 pm
Naperville wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:09 pm
Vivi wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:53 pm
Even a toothbrush makes a formidable shank in the right hands.

I'd have to agree that if you don't use your knives it seems strange to worry about a few rc points. You don't need boutique heat treatments to pierce flesh with something pointy.
Daggers are illegal in Illinois. I have a few and cannot legally carry any of them.

When looking for a weapon, I look for nothing but the best. My life depends on it. When people carry firearms, they also debate about stopping power and what clothing the target happens to be wearing. Same principles apply to knives.
Do you test the heat treat on your glocks and the weight of each round of ammo?
I use to own approx a dozen firearms, now I own none. I sold them when I moved to Silicon Valley. But yes, I bought ammo that would do the most damage to anything that needed to be removed: Cor-Bon high velocity rounds, Black Talon rounds, sabot shotgun rounds....
That's not quite what I was asking, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Do you do anything to test the quality of your guns and ammo besides putting lead downrange?

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Naperville » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:24 pm

Vivi wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:07 pm
That's not quite what I was asking, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Do you do anything to test the quality of your guns and ammo besides putting lead downrange?
No. Some of the guys at the range that I belonged too (Issac Walton) did have systems that could find the speed of the ammo they were shooting but I never bothered.
Spyderco Collection: Military S110V, Bob Lum Darn Dao, Yojimbo 2 (ONE) S30V & (TWO) CF 20CV, Sustain, Native 5 Maxamet, Jumpmaster 2. SHORT LIST: CF Shaman in S90V; Province.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Naperville » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:25 pm

When I get back in to shooting I'd like to try NRA F-TR and I'll be making my own ammo.
Spyderco Collection: Military S110V, Bob Lum Darn Dao, Yojimbo 2 (ONE) S30V & (TWO) CF 20CV, Sustain, Native 5 Maxamet, Jumpmaster 2. SHORT LIST: CF Shaman in S90V; Province.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby SteveMidwest » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:16 pm

As some have said here earlier. HRC, is not the be-all end-all. But it is a piece of the puzzle. Some who ask for it, or see that number. Might not know how to fully process it from there. So many variables. But if we do get an HRC range, from a manufacturer. Say 58-60, and the blade ends up scoring a 55. We should then have some ground to stand on, in sending the knife back. And where does the knife go back to? The Dealer. Then it's the Dealer, and any weight they may have in this situation. To put more pressure on the manufacturer, to do the right thing. More pressure than any individual can push with. Will they though? Who knows.

I do have a Rockwell Tester here nearby, in a friends Tool & Die Shop next door. We use it from time to time. And I've gathered enough information now. From my testing, and from others. That I always feel 100% confident in what Golden is putting out there. The last five knives that I have tested, of mine. Were the Manix 2 Maxamet LW, Para 3 4V, Benchmade 560BK-1 Super Freek M4, Manix 2 4V, and the PM2 Rex 45. Some newer stuff, that REALLY had the steel nerd in me, curious enough, to take the time and poke the blades. You should have seen the smile on my face, each and every time! :D

So it's not Spyderco I have any concerns with. Whether they publish any HRC numbers or not. It's the rest of the world, that has me questioning it from time to time, and much more frequently now. I will never again, from this week forward. Buy another M390 knife, unless it's from Spyderco. If it does not have a published HRC range attached to it. I need some ground to stand on, and if I get a 55 HRC blade from anyone, anymore. There's a good chance it's going back. If it does not fall within, or very near the range published, and if I ever bother to test it. That can only be done, if they published numbers. Most. A vast majority of my knives, I do not test. With some, I don't care nearly as much.

I think I have one of those pictures handy here too. Let me see if I can find it quick.

Yep, here it is. This picture was taken, when poking my PM2 REX 45.

Image

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Vivi » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:27 pm

SteveMidwest wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:16 pm
As some have said here earlier. HRC, is not the be-all end-all. But it is a piece of the puzzle. Some who ask for it, or see that number. Might not know how to fully process it from there. So many variables. But if we do get an HRC range, from a manufacturer. Say 58-60, and the blade ends up scoring a 55. We should then have some ground to stand on, in sending the knife back. And where does the knife go back to? The Dealer. Then it's the Dealer, and any weight they may have in this situation. To put more pressure on the manufacturer, to do the right thing. More pressure than any individual can push with. Will they though? Who knows.

I do have a Rockwell Tester here nearby, in a friends Tool & Die Shop next door. We use it from time to time. And I've gathered enough information now. From my testing, and from others. That I always feel 100% confident in what Golden is putting out there. The last five knives that I have tested, of mine. Were the Manix 2 Maxamet LW, Para 3 4V, Benchmade 560BK-1 Super Freek M4, Manix 2 4V, and the PM2 Rex 45. Some newer stuff, that REALLY had the steel nerd in me, curious enough, to take the time and poke the blades. You should have seen the smile on my face, each and every time! :D

So it's not Spyderco I have any concerns with. Whether they publish any HRC numbers or not. It's the rest of the world, that has me questioning it from time to time, and much more frequently now. I will never again, from this week forward. Buy another M390 knife, unless it's from Spyderco. If it does not have a published HRC range attached to it. I need some ground to stand on, and if I get a 55 HRC blade from anyone, anymore. There's a good chance it's going back. If it does not fall within, or very near the range published, and if I ever bother to test it. That can only be done, if they published numbers. Most. A vast majority of my knives, I do not test. With some, I don't care nearly as much.

I think I have one of those pictures handy here too. Let me see if I can find it quick.

Yep, here it is. This picture was taken, when poking my PM2 REX 45.

Image
That's awesome you've got convenient access to that machine. Do you happen to own any H1? I think it would be interesting to test out PE and SE and see if there is any difference.
Naperville wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:25 pm
When I get back in to shooting I'd like to try NRA F-TR and I'll be making my own ammo.
I've always wanted to try that but the initial setup costs and fear I'd muck something up has kept me away. Used to have a buddy that made his own....he saved a lot of money, that's for sure.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Naperville » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:32 pm

Vivi wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:27 pm
That's awesome you've got convenient access to that machine. Do you happen to own any H1? I think it would be interesting to test out PE and SE and see if there is any difference.
Naperville wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:25 pm
When I get back in to shooting I'd like to try NRA F-TR and I'll be making my own ammo.
I've always wanted to try that but the initial setup costs and fear I'd muck something up has kept me away. Used to have a buddy that made his own....he saved a lot of money, that's for sure.
Yes shooting sports are a lot of fun. I use to "goof off" and did my own 3 gun shooting at Issac Walton.
Spyderco Collection: Military S110V, Bob Lum Darn Dao, Yojimbo 2 (ONE) S30V & (TWO) CF 20CV, Sustain, Native 5 Maxamet, Jumpmaster 2. SHORT LIST: CF Shaman in S90V; Province.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby ferider » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:37 am

Naperville wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:50 pm
I do have knives for self defense, the right hardness and HRC come in to play with them too, just as blade shape and PE or SE does.
For self defense, shouldn't you be more interested in Charpy/Toughness metrics than in HRC ? Any sharp knife will cut, but you wouldn't want the blade to break. Unless you have to cut through high HRC chain-mail, of course. :)

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Naperville » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:15 pm

ferider wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:37 am
Naperville wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:50 pm
I do have knives for self defense, the right hardness and HRC come in to play with them too, just as blade shape and PE or SE does.
For self defense, shouldn't you be more interested in Charpy/Toughness metrics than in HRC ? Any sharp knife will cut, but you wouldn't want the blade to break. Unless you have to cut through high HRC chain-mail, of course. :)
For larger blades, Yes. Most of my large blades "I think" are pretty tough.

KNIVES OVER 4 INCHES IN LENGTH. THE STEELS:
3V, 6 (Bark River Knives(2), Cold Steel(1), RMJ(2), Winkler Knives(1))
80CrV2, 4(Winkler Knives(4))
1095 High Carbon Steel, 4 (ESEE(1), KA-BAR(1), Tops Knives(2))
A2, 1 (Bark River Knives(1))
CPM-154, 1 (Spyderco(1))
H1, 1 (Spyderco(1))
O1, 6 (Randall(5), CRKT(1))
S35VN, 10 (Chris Reeve(1), Hinderer(1), KA-BAR(2), Medford(1), Spartan Blades(2), ZT Knives(3))


KNIVES OVER 4 INCHES IN LENGTH. THE BLADES:
1 - Winkler Knives WK II, Winkler Belt Knife - Exclusive Special Edition CPM 3V - Sculpted Multi Cam G10
1 - KA-BAR BK21 Becker/Reinhardt Kukri Fixed 13.25" Black 1095 Blade, Nylon Handles
1 - Spyderco Jumpmaster 2 Fixed 4.5" in H1 Serrated Leaf-Shaped Blade, Black FRN Handles
1 - Winkler Knives WK II Recon, with "Black Micarta" handles, handle treatment "Sculpted"
1 - ESEE Knives Junglas Machete 10.38" Dark Earth Blade, Micarta Handles, Kydex Sheath
1 - Spartan Blades Horkos - Flat Black & Black Micarta Tactical Fixed Blade
1 - Spyderco Stuart Ackerman Sustain, 20CV Blade
1 - Winkler Knives/Jason Knight WKII Pathfinder Fixed Blade Knife Black Micarta (4.75" Black)
1 - Winkler Knives/Jason Knight WK II Jaeger Fixed Blade Knife Black Micarta
1 - Medford Knife and Tool USMC Fighter
2 - RMJ Tactical Raider Dagger
1 - CRKT FE7
1 - Tops Knives - BladeOps Blackout - Special Ed Wild Pig Hunter
1 - Bark River Knives Bravo III
1 - Bark River Knives Moro Barong
1 - Bark River Knives MACV-SOG Bowie 3V
1 - Chris Reeve Knives Green Beret, 7 inch, DLC Coated
1 - Cold Steel Tai Pan, 3V
1 - Randall Made Knives CUSTOM Model 14 Attack Sawteeth / No Teeth," 7 inch O1 steel blade
1 - Randall Made Knives CUSTOM Model 14 Attack
1 - Randall Made Knives CUSTOM Model 13, Small (6") Arkansas Toothpick
1 - Randall Made Knives CUSTOM Model 13, Large (12") Arkansas Toothpick
1 - Spyderco Bob Lum Darn Dao Fixed
1 - TOPS Knives Wild Pig Hunter, 7 1/2" Long
Spyderco Collection: Military S110V, Bob Lum Darn Dao, Yojimbo 2 (ONE) S30V & (TWO) CF 20CV, Sustain, Native 5 Maxamet, Jumpmaster 2. SHORT LIST: CF Shaman in S90V; Province.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby SteveMidwest » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:54 pm

[/quote]That's awesome you've got convenient access to that machine. Do you happen to own any H1? I think it would be interesting to test out PE and SE and see if there is any difference.[/quote]

No H1. Sorry Vivi.

zhyla
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby zhyla » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:45 pm

Naperville wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:51 pm
zhyla wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:32 pm
The last thing we need is an Rc arms race.

I don’t have the faintest clue what Rc any of my Spyderco knives are. Somehow they all work great.
Are you saying that you would be fine with a Benchmade folder in 3V with an HRC of 56? That is what started these discussions two weeks ago.
Does it work well? Then yes.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby Naperville » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:34 pm

zhyla wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:45 pm
Naperville wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:51 pm
zhyla wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:32 pm
The last thing we need is an Rc arms race.

I don’t have the faintest clue what Rc any of my Spyderco knives are. Somehow they all work great.
Are you saying that you would be fine with a Benchmade folder in 3V with an HRC of 56? That is what started these discussions two weeks ago.
Does it work well? Then yes.
NO, it did not work well, and Super Steel Steve bent the beans out of it. It's garbage.
Spyderco Collection: Military S110V, Bob Lum Darn Dao, Yojimbo 2 (ONE) S30V & (TWO) CF 20CV, Sustain, Native 5 Maxamet, Jumpmaster 2. SHORT LIST: CF Shaman in S90V; Province.

zhyla
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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby zhyla » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:05 pm

Naperville wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:34 pm
NO, it did not work well, and Super Steel Steve bent the beans out of it. It's garbage.
So what would change if Benchmade claimed it was 62 Rc? It’s still garbage.

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Re: "HRC as advertised." Who is accurately listing HRC?

Postby The Meat man » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:19 pm

zhyla wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:05 pm
Naperville wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:34 pm
NO, it did not work well, and Super Steel Steve bent the beans out of it. It's garbage.
So what would change if Benchmade claimed it was 62 Rc? It’s still garbage.

Well, that wouldn't be "accurately listing" as the thread title says.
Wouldn't you say that 56 HRC is sub-optimal for CPM 3V?
- Connor

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)


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