M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
User avatar
ZrowsN1s
Member
Posts: 4684
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:08 pm
Location: San Diego, California USA

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:38 am

Errors in testing are absolutely possible. But if that were the case wouldn't their testing of others steels be all over the place too? Wouldn't a low test be the outlier, not a common phenomenon that happens only when testing m390? Why doesn't the M4 they test ever come out 10 points low? I can't speak for everyone testing, but I've heard this issue reported by people who know how to test properly, and have tested other steels without issue.
Carrying 3 knives is perfectly normal :D
-Matt

User avatar
shunsui
Member
Posts: 829
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby shunsui » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:51 am

If I was to guess, if there was an error, it would probably be the way the tester mounted the specific knife under the indenter on the anvil.

Image

https://i.imgur.com/kxSbXsH.jpg

I saw a picture of a red manix2 IIRC under test (found it), and it was an assembled knife indented in the area between the G10 and the spyderhole.

It's hard to see much of the anvil, but it looks like there's just a pin coming up under the blade. Doesn't look like there's any other support for the blade.

Accuracy might be hit or miss, I'd imagine they try and get the result they expect, but if say a Lionsteel knife didn't lend itself to this method of indenting possibly due to handle shape or blade shape, you might get a movement of 0.001" or whatever.

I'd think some kind of measurement error is more likely, considering how they tested the Manix2, than Lionsteel heat treating to an intended 50 HRC. Let's be real.

Anyway, that's just a guess. I'd love it if Kurt would post some youtube videos of his test procedures. I'm by no means an expert, but I think others here might be.

Oh, here's an interesting comment by JLS who did a lot of Mule team hardness testing:

"...I still haven't found the test results for MT06 and MT10. If they're not in some old spreadsheets, they're lost and I don't know that I want to know the hardness bad enough to tear the handles off (once they're epoxied on, they stay that way...at least how I do it)."

You can draw your own conclusions how that might be relevant or not.

As I said, it's all just a guess.

User avatar
shunsui
Member
Posts: 829
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby shunsui » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:38 am

On a more positive note, the BBS Delica is looking good.

Image

My money is on the bottom knife if you want to cut a lot of rope.

User avatar
Pelagic
Member
Posts: 1937
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: East Coast/Nomadic

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Pelagic » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:08 am

Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

User avatar
A.S.O.K.A
Member
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:20 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:11 am

bearfacedkiller wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:21 pm
I am a skeptic of "influencers" myself and in a way sort of detest that they have the pull they have. They are the ones who started the S30V is crap and ZT’s Elmax is bad stuff years ago and “influencers” weren’t even a big thing then.
S30V years ago had a bad rap because of issues that occured when it was produced in ingot form. Then came S35VN that had a very short ingot run then was quickly changed over to CPM S35VN as more companies started picking it up. Fast forward today, we now see CPM S35VN at an inflated price due to S30V's past problem and the "influencers" doing their thing. S30V was produced in ingot form for a long time before being switched over to powdered form. But for those of us who use CPM S30V, we know that S30V is a great steel.
Every Steel Has Its Appeal :cool:

A.S.O.K.A Edge on Youtube

The Meat man
Member
Posts: 2473
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:01 pm
Location: Missouri, USA

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby The Meat man » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:56 am

A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:11 am
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:21 pm
I am a skeptic of "influencers" myself and in a way sort of detest that they have the pull they have. They are the ones who started the S30V is crap and ZT’s Elmax is bad stuff years ago and “influencers” weren’t even a big thing then.
S30V years ago had a bad rap because of issues that occured when it was produced in ingot form. Then came S35VN that had a very short ingot run then was quickly changed over to CPM S35VN as more companies started picking it up. Fast forward today, we now see CPM S35VN at an inflated price due to S30V's past problem and the "influencers" doing their thing. S30V was produced in ingot form for a long time before being switched over to powdered form. But for those of us who use CPM S30V, we know that S30V is a great steel.
That's interesting. I didn't know that S30V used to be produced in ingot form.
- Connor

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

fanglekai
Member
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 10:53 am

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby fanglekai » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:04 am

A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:11 am
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:21 pm
I am a skeptic of "influencers" myself and in a way sort of detest that they have the pull they have. They are the ones who started the S30V is crap and ZT’s Elmax is bad stuff years ago and “influencers” weren’t even a big thing then.
S30V years ago had a bad rap because of issues that occured when it was produced in ingot form. Then came S35VN that had a very short ingot run then was quickly changed over to CPM S35VN as more companies started picking it up. Fast forward today, we now see CPM S35VN at an inflated price due to S30V's past problem and the "influencers" doing their thing. S30V was produced in ingot form for a long time before being switched over to powdered form. But for those of us who use CPM S30V, we know that S30V is a great steel.
What's your source on this? I've never seen non-CPM S30V since it was introduced. All S30V is CPM S30V.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
Member
Posts: 1761
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:31 pm

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:15 am

Nice article thanks.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

User avatar
bearfacedkiller
Member
Posts: 8713
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:22 pm
Location: hiding in the woods...

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby bearfacedkiller » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:08 am

A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:11 am
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:21 pm
I am a skeptic of "influencers" myself and in a way sort of detest that they have the pull they have. They are the ones who started the S30V is crap and ZT’s Elmax is bad stuff years ago and “influencers” weren’t even a big thing then.
S30V years ago had a bad rap because of issues that occured when it was produced in ingot form. Then came S35VN that had a very short ingot run then was quickly changed over to CPM S35VN as more companies started picking it up. Fast forward today, we now see CPM S35VN at an inflated price due to S30V's past problem and the "influencers" doing their thing. S30V was produced in ingot form for a long time before being switched over to powdered form. But for those of us who use CPM S30V, we know that S30V is a great steel.
Sounds like you are talking about D2? I think S30V was a powdered steel from the beginning when Barber and Reeves designed it. I was always under the impression that it was specifically designed to be a knife steel and that it was CPM from day one.

The original complaints about S30V and Elmax were heat treat related. S30V was reported to be chippy and Elmax was reported to be too soft. Those claims were either issues sorted out early or just flukes but both steels still carry some bad stigma. I think S35VN was partly designed to give S30V a fresh start due to that stigma.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

User avatar
Deadboxhero
Member
Posts: 1009
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:35 am

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Deadboxhero » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:56 am

Darby is correct, S30v and S35VN were always PM steels. There is no ingot versions.
Improvements made were just to the melts,processing rolling and HT over time.
Big Brown Bear
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston[/ur]
Triple B Handmade Knives

User avatar
A.S.O.K.A
Member
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:20 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:06 am

bearfacedkiller wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:08 am
A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:11 am
bearfacedkiller wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:21 pm
I am a skeptic of "influencers" myself and in a way sort of detest that they have the pull they have. They are the ones who started the S30V is crap and ZT’s Elmax is bad stuff years ago and “influencers” weren’t even a big thing then.
S30V years ago had a bad rap because of issues that occured when it was produced in ingot form. Then came S35VN that had a very short ingot run then was quickly changed over to CPM S35VN as more companies started picking it up. Fast forward today, we now see CPM S35VN at an inflated price due to S30V's past problem and the "influencers" doing their thing. S30V was produced in ingot form for a long time before being switched over to powdered form. But for those of us who use CPM S30V, we know that S30V is a great steel.
Sounds like you are talking about D2? I think S30V was a powdered steel from the beginning when Barber and Reeves designed it. I was always under the impression that it was specifically designed to be a knife steel and that it was CPM from day one.

The original complaints about S30V and Elmax were heat treat related. S30V was reported to be chippy and Elmax was reported to be too soft. Those claims were either issues sorted out early or just flukes but both steels still carry some bad stigma. I think S35VN was partly designed to give S30V a fresh start due to that stigma.
I think your right, may have confused the S30V thing. But yes, I remember the reports of the problems with S30V and how it continues to haunt it to this day. Especially now with more people interested in trying different steels, bad mouthing S30V in threads. Like the thread talkin about Cruwear being in regular production as opposed to S30V, someone actually said that S30V was less corrosion resistant and that they wanted cruwear to take its place. Bizzare comments
Every Steel Has Its Appeal :cool:

A.S.O.K.A Edge on Youtube

Doeswhateveraspidercan
Member
Posts: 1761
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:31 pm

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:08 am

According to Chris Reeve who was instrumental in the development of S35VN and till this day uses nothing but S35VN in all his knives it was to add additional corrosion resistance and toughness via the use of Niobium.

You can read it from the expert right here https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/02/18/ ... fe-steels/

Reputation had little to nothing to do with S30V and the development of S35VN. Remember steel manufacturers are not making their fortune on knives.

What is shocking and always has been to me is why Spyderco never transitioned it’s main production models to S35VN as Chris Reeve did.

By all accounts S35VN is a superior steel and easier to work with as well.

S110V also uses allot of Niobium and I have never gotten either S35VN or S90V or S110V to rust.

Elmax yes rust

M390 you bet yer buttons it will rust.

S30V rust and pit all in one hot 90+ degree 12 hour day moving in the brutal Florida sun in pocket ugly black pits and rust.

Since then outdoor work only finds LC200N or H1 in the pocket.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

Banter 247
Member
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:56 am

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Banter 247 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:18 am

shunsui wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:51 am
If I was to guess, if there was an error, it would probably be the way the tester mounted the specific knife under the indenter on the anvil.

Image

https://i.imgur.com/kxSbXsH.jpg

I saw a picture of a red manix2 IIRC under test (found it), and it was an assembled knife indented in the area between the G10 and the spyderhole.

It's hard to see much of the anvil, but it looks like there's just a pin coming up under the blade. Doesn't look like there's any other support for the blade.

Accuracy might be hit or miss, I'd imagine they try and get the result they expect, but if say a Lionsteel knife didn't lend itself to this method of indenting possibly due to handle shape or blade shape, you might get a movement of 0.001" or whatever.

I'd think some kind of measurement error is more likely, considering how they tested the Manix2, than Lionsteel heat treating to an intended 50 HRC. Let's be real.

Anyway, that's just a guess. I'd love it if Kurt would post some youtube videos of his test procedures. I'm by no means an expert, but I think others here might be.

Oh, here's an interesting comment by JLS who did a lot of Mule team hardness testing:

"...I still haven't found the test results for MT06 and MT10. If they're not in some old spreadsheets, they're lost and I don't know that I want to know the hardness bad enough to tear the handles off (once they're epoxied on, they stay that way...at least how I do it)."

You can draw your own conclusions how that might be relevant or not.

As I said, it's all just a guess.
It’s not a pin. It’s actually a small area anvil, designed specifically to test small components. Here is a pic of the anvil used in the tests. The pic is Kurt’s pic.

https://i.imgur.com/FCDhdzx.jpg

His results have been confirmed by Manly Knives, Benchmade, and an independent third party lab. I’ve seen email communication from Manly about it, and they in turn verified Kurt’s results by way of a lab of their choice.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
Member
Posts: 1761
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:31 pm

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:21 am

More on S30V.

I have also had S30V chip and tips break off while cutting cardboard.

Interestingly enough two recent purchases have me scratching my head over S30V and the two knives could not be more dissimilar.

Knife 1. Benchmade Nestucca fixed blade cleaver S330V

Knife 2. Spyderco Native Chief S30V

I have read Benchmade does not heat treat their S30V as high as Spyderco. Like this is a bad thing or something???

I am beginning to think Spyderco has not heat treated S30V as hard with a couple of knives and I am liking it!!

This Native Chief is phenomenal sharp and stupid easy to sharpen.

The Benchmade cleaver is also

My Manix2XL DLC is also.

My Ikuchi however does not sharpen as easily nor hold a truly sharp edge as well as any of the 4 mentioned here.

My PM2 S30V circa 2014 does not either.

My older Para3 circa 2016 and Yojimbo2 does not either nor does my sage5

My older PS Military does.

All are very different knives all are S30V

So S30V is very very good but I think the heat treatment in different models is higher making them harder to sharpen and prone to not keeping a truly sharp edge or..... perhaps it is the other way around. Who knows.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

User avatar
Pelagic
Member
Posts: 1937
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: East Coast/Nomadic

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Pelagic » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:50 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:08 am
What is shocking and always has been to me is why Spyderco never transitioned it’s main production models to S35VN as Chris Reeve did.

By all accounts S35VN is a superior steel and easier to work with as well.
What have you seen that makes this your opinion? I see no difference in the steels in use. And I have yet to see any s35vn perform better than buck's s30v. There are so many more s30v models available that between the 2, you probably won't find a s35vn model that performs better than select s30v models from spyderco, Benchmade, or buck.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

User avatar
A.S.O.K.A
Member
Posts: 145
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:20 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:13 pm

Still on S30V. I have been fairly fortunate with S30V blades that I have. The only thing was when I got my first S30V blade, my sharpening and understanding of sharpening wasnt the greatest. Now that I'm better at sharpening, my S30V knives have shown good results and over all S30V is a good steel to me
Every Steel Has Its Appeal :cool:

A.S.O.K.A Edge on Youtube

Doeswhateveraspidercan
Member
Posts: 1761
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:31 pm

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:20 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:50 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:08 am
What is shocking and always has been to me is why Spyderco never transitioned it’s main production models to S35VN as Chris Reeve did.

By all accounts S35VN is a superior steel and easier to work with as well.
What have you seen that makes this your opinion? I see no difference in the steels in use. And I have yet to see any s35vn perform better than buck's s30v. There are so many more s30v models available that between the 2, you probably won't find a s35vn model that performs better than select s30v models from spyderco, Benchmade, or buck.
Experience using the steels.

Trusting you know how google works but here are a few things since you want experts words instead of mine please do enjoy 😊 I wish Spyderco would a factory tour like he does in the video.

Look at a little over 4 minutes into the video Chris says it directly. S35VN is better.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/09/03/ ... -articles/

https://youtu.be/4QiEnhA3n0A
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

Spook410
Member
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:34 am
Location: New Mexico

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Spook410 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:47 pm

Most of us don't abuse our expensive knives. And folks around here probably sharpen even more than needed. We may not see a practical performance difference between a S35V and S30V. Doesn't mean it's not there. And it doesn't mean we don't want the better one even if we never make a cut where it would have mattered.

We listen to those that test knives and understand metallurgy because it's interesting. And fun. Call them influencer's or whatever. And for awhile I was one of those guilty of only wanting super steels. Not merely a great steel. Today I find myself caring more about function. But since I have way too many knives don't buy much any more. Unless it's something cool and unusual. Like the Province when it comes out. A big chunk of very cool steel in a classic design. And I will likely never push the CPM 4V to it's limits, but I like knowing what it is and why it's interesting.

Back to the original topic, I would be disappointed if I paid a premium for M390 just to find it's too soft to perform to our lofty expectations established by harder examples. It's enough to have me check the hardness threads first and avoid vendors offering top flight steel in name only and to avoid those makes in the future.

User avatar
shunsui
Member
Posts: 829
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby shunsui » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:31 pm

Banter 247 wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:18 am

It’s not a pin. It’s actually a small area anvil, designed specifically to test small components. Here is a pic of the anvil used in the tests. The pic is Kurt’s pic.

https://i.imgur.com/FCDhdzx.jpg

His results have been confirmed by Manly Knives, Benchmade, and an independent third party lab. I’ve seen email communication from Manly about it, and they in turn verified Kurt’s results by way of a lab of their choice.
Image

Thanks for that picture. That's exactly what I meant when I said "pin". A really small anvil.

I thought about it all last night, and I think Kurt's probably getting decent measurements with what he has to work with. The most reasonable explanation for the Lionsteel knives is the knives were counterfeit, (or someone at the factory is about to get fired).

Good to hear there's independent confirmation going on. Makes me a lot more optimistic about the various spreadsheets.

edit - apparently the independent confirmation wasn't on the Lionsteel. oh well.
Last edited by shunsui on Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Pelagic
Member
Posts: 1937
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: East Coast/Nomadic

Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Pelagic » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:40 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:20 pm
Pelagic wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:50 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:08 am
What is shocking and always has been to me is why Spyderco never transitioned it’s main production models to S35VN as Chris Reeve did.

By all accounts S35VN is a superior steel and easier to work with as well.
What have you seen that makes this your opinion? I see no difference in the steels in use. And I have yet to see any s35vn perform better than buck's s30v. There are so many more s30v models available that between the 2, you probably won't find a s35vn model that performs better than select s30v models from spyderco, Benchmade, or buck.
Experience using the steels.

Trusting you know how google works but here are a few things since you want experts words instead of mine please do enjoy 😊 I wish Spyderco would a factory tour like he does in the video.

Look at a little over 4 minutes into the video Chris says it directly. S35VN is better.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/09/03/ ... -articles/

https://youtu.be/4QiEnhA3n0A
I don't doubt Chris Reeve is going to say the new steel he's trying to sell these days is better. I'm talking about cut tests. I've seen a lot and s30v seems to do better in production knives. I don't doubt that s35vn has more potential regarding custom heat treats. But at that price point I don't know why someone wouldn't choose a better steel. And I'm guessing you aren't concerned with custom heat treats since you made a thread about m390 and its cousins being hype steels when they actually have a lot of potential that essentially never gets showcased.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Chumango, Deadboxhero, Dodge, erikols, Frozenspyder, GarageBoy, Google [Bot], jpm2, Majestic-12 [Bot], MMGRenovations, Mr.B., Supacede and 25 guests