M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

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M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:50 pm

Hype steel kind of tired of it.

Have purchased each more than twice.

My experience puts CTS-204P and the overly much recognized M390 as identical.

Latrobe 20CV alone has proven sharper smoother subjectively almost Cruwear like cutting right out of the box.

So surprised how CTS-204P fails to be recognized as the M390 Equal.

Even more surprised how little 20CV is recognized as superior to both in the Spyderverse regardless of ingredient list, to heck with steel on paper.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby rbb2 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:22 pm

Unless I am mistaken, all three are generally considered as equivalent, just made by different foundries.

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A.S.O.K.A
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:37 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:50 pm
Hype steel kind of tired of it.

Have purchased each more than twice.

My experience puts CTS-204P and the overly much recognized M390 as identical.

Latrobe 20CV alone has proven sharper smoother subjectively almost Cruwear like cutting right out of the box.

So surprised how CTS-204P fails to be recognized as the M390 Equal.

Even more surprised how little 20CV is recognized as superior to both in the Spyderverse regardless of ingredient list, to heck with steel on paper.
Its even funnier how people still chase M390 even though its more expensive than the other 2. Also, 20CV and CTS-204P are much more available options
Every Steel Has Its Appeal :cool:

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:40 pm

Yes very similar on paper. M390 and CTS-204P in the Spyderco Knives I have purchased are impossible to tell apart in terms of sharpness the way the blade sharpens and the keen edge it can take.

20CV While appearing very close on paper is not the same it holds a keener edge. Sounds crazy but this is what’s i have experienced in the same model IE PM2 with all three of the steels referenced.

One thing I know for certain is I will be on the lookout for anything produced in 20CV and hope others come to understand just how good this steel is.

CTS-204 P and M390 over which there has been allot of hype and higher prices especially on the secondary market no longer gets my attention the way it once did now.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:43 pm

I'm still hoping that DLT Trading makes a 20CV para3 :D
Every Steel Has Its Appeal :cool:

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:45 pm

A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:43 pm
I'm still hoping that DLT Trading makes a 20CV para3 :D
Me too I will certainly buy one or two.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby rabbitanarchy14 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:51 am

A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:43 pm
I'm still hoping that DLT Trading makes a 20CV para3 :D
same here. just started a thread for a 20cv para 3
In-Possession - Para 3 S30V, Para 3 S35VN, Dice XHP, Lil Native S30V, Benchmade 555HGBlu, Ontario Rat 2 Green G10
On-Deck - Para 3 G10 S110V, Para 3 LW, Sage 5 FRN, Brouwer
Wishing-For - Lil Native compression in FRN/G10 sprints, Para 3 G10 20CV
Past Knives - Byrd Crow 2 in BD1, Manix 2 S110V, Cat G10 BD1, Delica 4 Blue, Manix 2 S30V, PM2 S35VN

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby JD Spydo » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:03 am

A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:37 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:50 pm
Hype steel kind of tired of it.

Have purchased each more than twice.

My experience puts CTS-204P and the overly much recognized M390 as identical.

Latrobe 20CV alone has proven sharper smoother subjectively almost Cruwear like cutting right out of the box.

So surprised how CTS-204P fails to be recognized as the M390 Equal.

Even more surprised how little 20CV is recognized as superior to both in the Spyderverse regardless of ingredient list, to heck with steel on paper.
Its even funnier how people still chase M390 even though its more expensive than the other 2. Also, 20CV and CTS-204P are much more available options
Well all I can tell you is that I've had my M390 Military model as my main EDC going on close to 3 years now and it's been a great performer for me. I'm right at this moment looking to buy another two M390 Spyderco models. I love the way I can get a super smooth edge that I find similar to my straight razor when really sharp. With the performance I've had with my M390 Millie on some really rough jobs I can hardly label it as "Hype Steel" :confused: Personally for years I have thought that about S30V deserves the label of "Hype Steel"

Now I'm not a bonafide metallurgist and I'm in no way saying it's the best steel on the planet. Also I've said before if I find something that significantly outperforms it I will semi-retire my M390 Millie and try another steel for a while. But I don't know how you all can say negative stuff about M390 because it's been a winner for me. I also landed an M390 Para2 for my old boss and he swears by his as well. And he's a hard dude to please :D

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby jdw » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:21 am

I am not a metallurgist either but it seems to me that it would be impossible to compare the three without the exact same HT.
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby ferider » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:35 am

I have all 3 from the same brand (20cv and m390 PM2, 204p Military; and m390 and 20cv from Hinderer or ZT). Indistinguishable from the same brand as a user for me, but different when you go from Spyderco to Hinderer to ZT.

Too common to be called "Hype". Just a great compromise of wear resistance, toughness and corrosion resistance.

Talking about stainless, wish Spyderco would make a knife in CPM 154 though .... Military, Manix 2 or XL would be great. Am I the only one ?

Roland.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby steelcity16 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:08 am

ferider wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:35 am

Talking about stainless, wish Spyderco would make a knife in CPM 154 though .... Military, Manix 2 or XL would be great. Am I the only one ?

No, I would like to try a CPM-154 blade as well. I'm into the LWs these days though, so I would vote Manix LW or Para 3 LW. I am saving my Manix XL requests for CRUWEAR!
:spyder: Enjoys long walks on the beach with rustproof lightweight folding knives. Must love Boye Dents and deep carry wire clips. :spyder:

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby TomAiello » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:23 am

I'd like to see an EDC folder in CPM 154. Spyderco does make knives in CPM 154, just not something I can EDC. Even around here carrying around a Respect or Darn Dao is probably going overboard.

I have a Leek in CPM 154 that I've been quite impressed with.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby wrdwrght » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:31 am

I like steels to be hyped.

Their champions argue for the abundance of pros over the scarcity of cons, and we let our curiosity get the better of us, budgets allowing, to see if we agree.

When we don’t agree on things, we get nearer their essence.

Isn’t learning fun?
Last edited by wrdwrght on Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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INBOUND: Native Chief. ON RADAR: Maxamet PM2; SE Salt2; M4 Dodo exclusive; Roadie. IN DREAMS: K390/10V Military; Cruwear/K390 Shaman; 3V/4V Native Chief; Slysz Swayback; Anso Rock Lobster; Nishijin “R”; C27 serrated Jess Horn.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:33 am

JD Spydo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:03 am
A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:37 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:50 pm
Hype steel kind of tired of it.

Have purchased each more than twice.

My experience puts CTS-204P and the overly much recognized M390 as identical.

Latrobe 20CV alone has proven sharper smoother subjectively almost Cruwear like cutting right out of the box.

So surprised how CTS-204P fails to be recognized as the M390 Equal.

Even more surprised how little 20CV is recognized as superior to both in the Spyderverse regardless of ingredient list, to heck with steel on paper.
Its even funnier how people still chase M390 even though its more expensive than the other 2. Also, 20CV and CTS-204P are much more available options
Well all I can tell you is that I've had my M390 Military model as my main EDC going on close to 3 years now and it's been a great performer for me. I'm right at this moment looking to buy another two M390 Spyderco models. I love the way I can get a super smooth edge that I find similar to my straight razor when really sharp. With the performance I've had with my M390 Millie on some really rough jobs I can hardly label it as "Hype Steel" :confused: Personally for years I have thought that about S30V deserves the label of "Hype Steel"

Now I'm not a bonafide metallurgist and I'm in no way saying it's the best steel on the planet. Also I've said before if I find something that significantly outperforms it I will semi-retire my M390 Millie and try another steel for a while. But I don't know how you all can say negative stuff about M390 because it's been a winner for me. I also landed an M390 Para2 for my old boss and he swears by his as well. And he's a hard dude to please :D
I simply point out the fact that m390 is more expensive and at one point harder to come by than the other two
Every Steel Has Its Appeal :cool:

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby ZrowsN1s » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:05 am

jdw wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:21 am
I am not a metallurgist either but it seems to me that it would be impossible to compare the three without the exact same HT.
Yes. I was talking with OP about this in another thread, and the point I was failing to get across was that his preference for 20CV over M390 and 204P comes down to the 20CV he has having a higher HRC than the M390 and 204P he has had. What I would try to clarify is, if he had happened to get an M390 blade that had the heat treat his 20CV blade had, and the 20CV blade had the lower heat treat the M390 had, he'd be on here saying how awesome M390 was and how it was much better than 20CV.

With equal heat treats and geometry these should all perform the same.

Now why are heat treats for these steels all over the place in production knives? Why are so many companies putting out softer M390 204P 20CV. I was discussing this with banter 247 in the HRC thread. I'll repost here.
Banter 247 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:48 pm
To any interested parties, Gerald at Outpost76 on YouTube just put up an edge retention test, run three times, to verify performance range, on his channel. It’s a PM2 in M390, tested at 62hrc. When compared to multiple edge retention tests of 57-59hrc M390/20CV/204P, this is jaw dropping. The performance increase is ... substantial.

Now... as a buyer, there is a spot of bad news. It seems likely that, as Kenny from InthePocket suggested in our chat, there may only be a small number of optimal hardness samples per production batch.

One of the challenges to delivering this family of steels at peak hardness is moving them from oven to quench fast enough. In a batch of 2-3 blades (common custom batch size), with stations close together, it’s not prohibitively tricky. In production scale, only a small segment of the batch is likely to get there fast enough. As a result, it should be fairly common to see hrc distribution across same-batch samples range from 57-62, with the vast majority between 57-59. We’re unlikely to ever see production steel from this family hit 63-64, which has been done in 2-3 blade batch sizes. These steels don’t seem to be tolerant of slow transitions in the ht process.

This would neatly explain why Spyderco consistently nails ht on so many steels, including less common stuff peaking as high as 69hrc (Maxamet) and the like, while consistently missing optimal range with this family and Elmax, which is very close in composition.

In other words, it’s a crap shoot right now.
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby ferider » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:30 am

A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:33 am
I simply point out the fact that m390 is more expensive and at one point harder to come by than the other two
If you like 20CV, cherish it (I do). Including the China market, there are _many_ more M390 knives on the market.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby ferider » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:36 am

ZrowsN1s wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:05 am
This would neatly explain why Spyderco consistently nails ht on so many steels, including less common stuff peaking as high as 69hrc (Maxamet) and
I guess "nailing ht" means optimal for you box and rope cutters ... But: not all of us want knives to be optimized for wear resistance. I do keep my knives sharp, but sharpening is a chore. I'm not particularly fond of chips, so I appreciate M390 a bit softer but tougher (say Hinderer), vs. harder and chippy (say, M390 PM3).

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:44 am

JD Spydo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:03 am
A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:37 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:50 pm
Hype steel kind of tired of it.

Have purchased each more than twice.

My experience puts CTS-204P and the overly much recognized M390 as identical.

Latrobe 20CV alone has proven sharper smoother subjectively almost Cruwear like cutting right out of the box.

So surprised how CTS-204P fails to be recognized as the M390 Equal.

Even more surprised how little 20CV is recognized as superior to both in the Spyderverse regardless of ingredient list, to heck with steel on paper.
Its even funnier how people still chase M390 even though its more expensive than the other 2. Also, 20CV and CTS-204P are much more available options
Well all I can tell you is that I've had my M390 Military model as my main EDC going on close to 3 years now and it's been a great performer for me. I'm right at this moment looking to buy another two M390 Spyderco models. I love the way I can get a super smooth edge that I find similar to my straight razor when really sharp. With the performance I've had with my M390 Millie on some really rough jobs I can hardly label it as "Hype Steel" :confused: Personally for years I have thought that about S30V deserves the label of "Hype Steel"

Now I'm not a bonafide metallurgist and I'm in no way saying it's the best steel on the planet. Also I've said before if I find something that significantly outperforms it I will semi-retire my M390 Millie and try another steel for a while. But I don't know how you all can say negative stuff about M390 because it's been a winner for me. I also landed an M390 Para2 for my old boss and he swears by his as well. And he's a hard dude to please :D
Go get yourself a 20CV PM2 just saw one sell on ebay yesterday for $175.00 then use it and you will see. I do not have negative things to say about M390 or CTS-204P they are both great steel 20CV however chemically similar is better.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:48 am

jdw wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:21 am
I am not a metallurgist either but it seems to me that it would be impossible to compare the three without the exact same HT.
Correct so we go with what is produced and base opinions from use on that. PM2 in M390, CTS-204P and CV20 same manufacturer, same model.

Yes M390 is Hyped up people know the name or like the letters and numbers combo ???? Either way it is harder to find in Spyderco's and more expensive but not justifiably so. CTS-204P is indistinguishable from it in use and 20CV in my use pulls ahead of both.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Re: M390 CTS-204P 20CV :) Hype Steel

Postby bearfacedkiller » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:01 am

The difference between these three steels is likely just a difference in heat treatment.

Based on the examples I have used I find them all to be over hyped. Maybe I haven’t used one with optimal heat treatment but in my use it doesn’t behave all that much different than S30V/S35VN. If I need a stainless with more wear resistance than S30V/S35VN I will just go up to S90V or S110V.

The M390 steels are good steels but they just don’t fill a niche for me and my eyes they are way over hyped.
-Darby
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