Dull SE vs sharp SE

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Vivi
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Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Vivi » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:28 pm

I recently bought a couple of SE Pacific Salts to have backups for my EDC. One of them came really dull.

I was curious how well it'd cut compared to my razor sharp EDC SE Pacific Salt and did some head to head cutting.

The difference was drastic.

The dull one snagged and hung up constantly, and had no push cutting ability. It'd roughly saw through materials and leave messy, ragged cuts that were difficult to keep under control.

The sharp one left clean cuts like a razor sharp PE knife, and could push cut with ease. Slicing was effortless in comparison, and keeping the cuts controlled was much easier.

Think it'd be a fun video? Comparing the two head to head?

The dull one reminds me of all the SE knives that I had tried prior to learning how to sharpen them. I thought showing how a really sharp SE knife cuts in comparison may open some eyes.

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Bill1170 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:32 pm

Yes, please make the video. Sometimes pictures speak louder than words, and I suspect this is one of those times.

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Evil D
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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Evil D » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:49 pm

This is literally the entire problem with people's perception of SE. I actually hate the opinion that SE holds an edge longer because I think it leads to people neglecting them more expecting them to stay sharp forever, then the snagging starts and then they dislike them. Combine that with a general unwillingness to learn to sharpen them and you have one of the best EDC performance options getting a bad rap.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:00 pm

I would love to see more of your videos please do make one, Hi Evil D :) I Gave mine to Evil D and he did a wonderful video.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:02 pm

Hmmm which one of you was it that did the video using a Dremel and Rouge to sharpen serrations? Was that you Evil D? Great video still in cue to do this as a project.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Evil D » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:11 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:02 pm
Hmmm which one of you was it that did the video using a Dremel and Rouge to sharpen serrations? Was that you Evil D? Great video still in cue to do this as a project.


That was me. Honestly I don't even do that anymore, all it really takes is practice on the Sharpmaker.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:20 pm

Evil D wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:11 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:02 pm
Hmmm which one of you was it that did the video using a Dremel and Rouge to sharpen serrations? Was that you Evil D? Great video still in cue to do this as a project.


That was me. Honestly I don't even do that anymore, all it really takes is practice on the Sharpmaker.
Cool what are you going with 15 or 20 degrees?

Brown rods or going white or even further with ultra fine?

As I recall there was talk of going both downwards and upwards on the Sharpmaker any validity to that?

Vivi helped me allot with S30V and pressure on the rods I now put one hand behind my back and if the Sharpmaker slides I know I am using too much pressure.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Evil D » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:39 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:20 pm
Evil D wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:11 pm
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:02 pm
Hmmm which one of you was it that did the video using a Dremel and Rouge to sharpen serrations? Was that you Evil D? Great video still in cue to do this as a project.


That was me. Honestly I don't even do that anymore, all it really takes is practice on the Sharpmaker.
Cool what are you going with 15 or 20 degrees?

Brown rods or going white or even further with ultra fine?

As I recall there was talk of going both downwards and upwards on the Sharpmaker any validity to that?

Vivi helped me allot with S30V and pressure on the rods I now put one hand behind my back and if the Sharpmaker slides I know I am using too much pressure.


I only use the browns when there's edge damage or if it's super dull. They do remove metal faster than the white rods so you have to be careful with them. I usually use them with a brand new knife because I like the points to be a little bit rounded and less pointy.

I still do the heel to tip/tip to heel alternating passes. It may just be me and my technique but I've colored the bevel and see that I don't get the whole edge if I only go heel to tip. I also like that it cross hatches the scratch pattern on the edge.

Too much pressure is indeed bad, regardless of the edge type. Always let the stone do the work.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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Vivi
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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Vivi » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:01 pm

David, I've been experimenting with your back and forth technique for reprofiling SE knives. I figure it should be faster than single direction strokes.

I don't have any trouble hitting all of the serration going in one direction but I do like that in keeping the knife on the stone as I pull it back up, I can easily hear / feel myself getting off angle.

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Jazz » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:33 am

Yes, people need to know dull serrations are crap. Very sharp serrations are awesome.
- best wishes, Jazz.

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Wartstein » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:41 am

Jazz wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:33 am
Yes, people need to know dull serrations are crap. Very sharp serrations are awesome.
True (though I only have experience with my Combo edge Delica concerning Spyderco serrations). But as much true for PLAIN edge... ;)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Wartstein » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:46 am

Vivi wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:28 pm


Think it'd be a fun video? Comparing the two head to head?
Definitely! I´d like to see that.

Actually I am thinking of getting the Endela in SE. I realized, that my Spyderco-serrations-experience only depends on the short section on my combo edge Delica, which is also sabre grind.

So to really form a valid opinion and being able to join the disussion, I´ll have to try a ffg fully SE knife, and the Endela looks like a good choice for that. Especially since it features still quite a bit of PE towards the tip, should need be for PE in certain tasks. Also from what I´ve learned so far (in theory on this forum) it´s better to do a SE blade in a not too hard steel ,so VG10 should be a good choice either
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby HarleyXJGuy » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:42 am

Vivi and Evil, could you break down tips and strategy for sharpening SE on the SM please.

I still have not figured out how to sort my SE Spydies and want to put my old Millie back into the rotation in the worst way.
On my radar: 110V Military, Police 4 and some sweet Rex 45 Military action.

Newest Spydies: S90v Ti Military, Pacific Salt and a special Kiwi.

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby JD Spydo » Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:10 am

Evil D wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:49 pm
This is literally the entire problem with people's perception of SE. I actually hate the opinion that SE holds an edge longer because I think it leads to people neglecting them more expecting them to stay sharp forever, then the snagging starts and then they dislike them. Combine that with a general unwillingness to learn to sharpen them and you have one of the best EDC performance options getting a bad rap.
Now I will differ with you in one regard. Because a serrated/Spyderedge will "PERFORM" longer being a bit dinged up than will a plain edge that's a bit dinged up and somewhat lost it's apex. I can still get a dinged up Spyderedge to somewhat "saw" through something just enough to get you by until you can spend the time to put a premium edge on it.

But overall you are right. But I still say a somewhat crippled/dulled serrated edge will do a bit more than a plain edge in the same condition. Also I do believe that a serrated edge will stay sharper just a bit longer than a plain edge from the standpoint that less of the actual contact of the cutting edge touches the material to be cut less than with a plain edge>> because a plain edge you have almost 100% of the edge being in contact with what you're cutting.

But again overall I'm not disagreeing with. I do very much agree with you from the standpoint that a "half sharp" serrated edge gives people a false sense of security and thus they neglect the needed edge maintenance on a serrated edge most of the time. Whereas on a plain edge they tend to get to it right away.

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Evil D » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:56 am

JD Spydo wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:10 am
Evil D wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:49 pm
This is literally the entire problem with people's perception of SE. I actually hate the opinion that SE holds an edge longer because I think it leads to people neglecting them more expecting them to stay sharp forever, then the snagging starts and then they dislike them. Combine that with a general unwillingness to learn to sharpen them and you have one of the best EDC performance options getting a bad rap.
Now I will differ with you in one regard. Because a serrated/Spyderedge will "PERFORM" longer being a bit dinged up than will a plain edge that's a bit dinged up and somewhat lost it's apex. I can still get a dinged up Spyderedge to somewhat "saw" through something just enough to get you by until you can spend the time to put a premium edge on it.

But overall you are right. But I still say a somewhat crippled/dulled serrated edge will do a bit more than a plain edge in the same condition. Also I do believe that a serrated edge will stay sharper just a bit longer than a plain edge from the standpoint that less of the actual contact of the cutting edge touches the material to be cut less than with a plain edge>> because a plain edge you have almost 100% of the edge being in contact with what you're cutting.

But again overall I'm not disagreeing with. I do very much agree with you from the standpoint that a "half sharp" serrated edge gives people a false sense of security and thus they neglect the needed edge maintenance on a serrated edge most of the time. Whereas on a plain edge they tend to get to it right away.


Oh I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm saying maybe to the average person who hasn't used SE the truth has turned more into legend and hype. I've seen so many comments from people claiming they haven't sharpened their serrations in months or even years, and maybe those are the people who aren't bothered by snagging and ripping and don't mind sawing through things, but when the uninitiated buy a SE knife and have that kind of expectation in mind they quickly get disappointed when the knife dulls and starts snagging. Then if that person also doesn't know how or doesn't have a proper tool to sharpen their SE, their experience is ruined and they go back to PE.

My views on all this may be a little more extreme than others because I don't mind touching up my edge at the end of each day, because the steels I'm using are very easy and even rewarding to sharpen. Then I know the next day I'm starting out with a very sharp knife, and so far I haven't completely dulled H1 or LC in SE in one day's use. Because I sharpen so often I only need an average level of edge retention, and in turn I want a tough and easy to sharpen steel so it resists edge damage (which takes extra time to fix).

In the end I may spend more time sharpening (debatable really since I sharpen more frequently but probably less overall time), but I also think this may be why I'm getting the edges that I get, since I get lots of practice and build lots of muscle memory.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Evil D » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:04 am

HarleyXJGuy wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:42 am
Vivi and Evil, could you break down tips and strategy for sharpening SE on the SM please.

I still have not figured out how to sort my SE Spydies and want to put my old Millie back into the rotation in the worst way.

Aside from alternating my passes (heel to tip, tip to heel) I really don't do anything special that the Sharpmaker DVD doesn't tell you. I do tilt my edge over so it's almost laying flat on the rod when making passes on the back side of the blade but that just keeps the inclusive edge a bit thinner.

The unfortunate reality is you just have to "get good" on the Sharpmaker. Holding the edge consistently at 90 and making sure you don't use too much pressure are important. For me it also seems much easier to get then sharp once I have established a not-so-micro micro bevel. I also tend to use the 40 slots to make sure I get the very edge, but I've been experimenting with changing the angles on the Sharpmaker so I hit at more of a 35ish degree angle but still hit mostly the edge side of the bevel and not the shoulder.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

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Vivi
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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Vivi » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:02 pm

HarleyXJGuy wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:42 am
Vivi and Evil, could you break down tips and strategy for sharpening SE on the SM please.

I still have not figured out how to sort my SE Spydies and want to put my old Millie back into the rotation in the worst way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptmx1iJELhU

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:27 pm

Thanks enjoyed the video and the shirt BTW Around 23 years ago when I lived in Cape Canaveral FL my neighbor and friend at the time in the apartment complex was a semi pro wrestler who happened to know Terry. I got to meet him when he visited once Dude was huge and a heck of a nice guy.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby HarleyXJGuy » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:43 pm

Vivi wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:02 pm
HarleyXJGuy wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:42 am
Vivi and Evil, could you break down tips and strategy for sharpening SE on the SM please.

I still have not figured out how to sort my SE Spydies and want to put my old Millie back into the rotation in the worst way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptmx1iJELhU
Is that your video Vivi?
On my radar: 110V Military, Police 4 and some sweet Rex 45 Military action.

Newest Spydies: S90v Ti Military, Pacific Salt and a special Kiwi.

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Re: Dull SE vs sharp SE

Postby JD Spydo » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:23 pm

Evil D wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:56 am
JD Spydo wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:10 am
Evil D wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:49 pm
This is literally the entire problem with people's perception of SE. I actually hate the opinion that SE holds an edge longer because I think it leads to people neglecting them more expecting them to stay sharp forever, then the snagging starts and then they dislike them. Combine that with a general unwillingness to learn to sharpen them and you have one of the best EDC performance options getting a bad rap.
Now I will differ with you in one regard. Because a serrated/Spyderedge will "PERFORM" longer being a bit dinged up than will a plain edge that's a bit dinged up and somewhat lost it's apex. I can still get a dinged up Spyderedge to somewhat "saw" through something just enough to get you by until you can spend the time to put a premium edge on it.

But overall you are right. But I still say a somewhat crippled/dulled serrated edge will do a bit more than a plain edge in the same condition. Also I do believe that a serrated edge will stay sharper just a bit longer than a plain edge from the standpoint that less of the actual contact of the cutting edge touches the material to be cut less than with a plain edge>> because a plain edge you have almost 100% of the edge being in contact with what you're cutting.

But again overall I'm not disagreeing with. I do very much agree with you from the standpoint that a "half sharp" serrated edge gives people a false sense of security and thus they neglect the needed edge maintenance on a serrated edge most of the time. Whereas on a plain edge they tend to get to it right away.


Oh I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm saying maybe to the average person who hasn't used SE the truth has turned more into legend and hype. I've seen so many comments from people claiming they haven't sharpened their serrations in months or even years, and maybe those are the people who aren't bothered by snagging and ripping and don't mind sawing through things, but when the uninitiated buy a SE knife and have that kind of expectation in mind they quickly get disappointed when the knife dulls and starts snagging. Then if that person also doesn't know how or doesn't have a proper tool to sharpen their SE, their experience is ruined and they go back to PE.

My views on all this may be a little more extreme than others because I don't mind touching up my edge at the end of each day, because the steels I'm using are very easy and even rewarding to sharpen. Then I know the next day I'm starting out with a very sharp knife, and so far I haven't completely dulled H1 or LC in SE in one day's use. Because I sharpen so often I only need an average level of edge retention, and in turn I want a tough and easy to sharpen steel so it resists edge damage (which takes extra time to fix).

In the end I may spend more time sharpening (debatable really since I sharpen more frequently but probably less overall time), but I also think this may be why I'm getting the edges that I get, since I get lots of practice and build lots of muscle memory.
Yeah I think we agree a lot more than we disagree on this issue. Because I'm a lot like yourself in that I very rarely let any of my user knives get dull at all. It's really not all that often that I have to do a total reprofile on any of my blades and I'm sure that's true with you too. I literally have no idol time>> I'm usually hitting my serrated blades with one of my 701 Profile sets>> or I'm fine tuning a plain edge on my Goldenstone and Duckfoot sharpeners which I take with me almost everywhere now.


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