Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
BigWillie
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Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby BigWillie » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:42 am

So a certain company has lost their patent to a certain lock that is very much like the CBBL. And the moment I've been waiting for years for has arrived. Not that I dislike the CBBL, but it is a relatively complex lock compared to a simple pin and springs. And at the very least adds to the cost to produce the blades and fit into the handle. Also makes it difficult to strip.

Although obviously I'm no engineer nor even well informed for a laymen. So I won't go into to much on why I like the pin/spring locks and embarrass myself. I'm sure you're aware of all the arguments that's why you made the CBBL. Most of the pros seem to overlap. Pin and springs just seems simpler in just about every aspect.

I would gladly pay 300 plus for a PM2 with a well made pin and spring lock in S30v from a very limited sprint run if that's what it took, or whatever really if I'm being honest....Anything under 1,000 i would legitimately consider. And I'm a guy who has daily carried a 15 dollar knife in 440c for a few years now. It has convinced me of the pin/spring's merit. If the lock can be this functional at this price point it's hard to imagine that Spyderco couldn't come up with something better given a few tries.

I'm sure there are some marketing arguments against using a pin and springs. But in my opinion the lock is so basic it will sooner or later be a ubiquitous generic lock type just like a frame lock or lockback. (although again I'm not an expert but I do spend too much time on internet forums and the community seems to like the lock)

Please Spyderco let me give you an ungodly sum of money for a knife, please......***sobs***

If you too want a PM2 with a pin and springs lock, or just any of the other line with that lock. Let Spyderco know. They can't be expected to read our minds. We have to tell them what we want.

The CBBL is good but clearly if that was going to become a more ubiquitous lock int he line it would have been done by now. And I'd have a PM2 with a CBBL in my pocket.

Thanks for reading. If nothing comes of this at least I've vented a bit.

rangefinder
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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby rangefinder » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:40 am

BigWillie wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:42 am
If you too want a PM2 with a pin and springs lock, or just any of the other line with that lock. Let Spyderco know. They can't be expected to read our minds. We have to tell them what we want.

I assume you mean "AXIS lock" here? It's OK to use the given name. I suspect that if Spyderco ever used this lock, they'd call it the "McHenry and Williams AXIS lock" (just like they use "Walker liner lock" and "Reeve integral lock") to give credit to the inventors.

IMO, a PM2 with a different lock would no longer be a PM2. That's not a dig on the AXIS lock; there have been requests in the past for a PM2 with backlock, and I wouldn't want that either.

So while I wouldn't mind if Spyderco made some new model with AXIS lock (or eventually made a Sage with AXIS lock, since the Sage model is designed to showcase different locks), I don't want a PM2 with AXIS lock.

I also doubt Spyderco would ever do a PM2 with AXIS lock simply because the horrible Ganzo rip-offs have already done that combo.

Personally, I've had mixed results with AXIS lock knives. I don't know if the issues I've seen are inherent flaws in the design or due to how Benchmade made the knives. Now that a few other companies are making knives with AXIS lock, I may try one of those to see if other manufacturers do this lock better or worse than Benchmade. (I like the design of the Hogue/HK "Exemplar" model so I may eventually get one of those.)

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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby curlyhairedboy » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:20 pm

I do believe there are a number of knives made with an axis lock that also have holes similar to Spyderco's in the blade. Combined with aftermarket scales, you might be able to make the knife of your dreams?
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BigWillie
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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby BigWillie » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:27 pm

I don't call it the Axis because I don't wanna just talk crap about benchmade/griptillian etc, and more importantly I'm pretty sure they can't call it an axis lock in their advertised specs. So I gave it a generic name. Pin and springs lock sounds about as generic as it gets

I'm not a big fan of the compression lock next to the pin and springs. Although I would prefer it over most other common lock types. Easy one handed use is important to me

The ganzo knives are proof of why they should do this

There is no shame in it, they built themselves on the backs of great American ideas.

There is obviously a market for this. And again while a compression lock is ok. It ain't no axis lock.

I don't think many people are buying PM2's because they love the lock, they love the ergos, trust the steel, and trust the tolerances/warranty. And the look grows on you too. Not to mention a narrow point is difficult to go without once you've had it.

If there was one obvious negative to the PM2 it is it's lock. It would crush the 941 in sales if it had something like an axis lock

BigWillie
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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby BigWillie » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:31 pm

curlyhairedboy wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:20 pm
I do believe there are a number of knives made with an axis lock that also have holes similar to Spyderco's in the blade. Combined with aftermarket scales, you might be able to make the knife of your dreams?
I know what you're referring to, but the ergos are off. And I will not buy from them for a few reasons.

At this point I stick with my China blade, pray some custom maker familiar with axis locks will do it, or the obviously best solution. Spyderco just releases a PM2 with an axis lock.

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JonLeBlanc
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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby JonLeBlanc » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:29 pm

To be honest, I'm good with the compression lock lol
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BigWillie
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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby BigWillie » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:28 pm

JonLeBlanc wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:29 pm
To be honest, I'm good with the compression lock lol
Compression lock is OK....

But I'd way prefer CBBL.

Have you ever used one of these style of locks? They're very very very impressive as long as the springs are working right.

The rest of the handle is more likely to give than than that lock.

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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby BigWillie » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:38 pm

JonLeBlanc wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:29 pm
To be honest, I'm good with the compression lock lol
Compression lock is OK....

But I'd way prefer CBBL.

Have you ever used one of these style of locks? They're very very very impressive as long as the springs are working right.

The rest of the handle is more likely to give than than that lock.

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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby Brotherscinc0 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:09 pm

Ew, no way.

The axis lock is far inferior to the compression lock in longevity and intuitive operation. Those omega springs are made of a very thin gauge wire and WIll eventually break.

That’s my opinion on that

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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby zhyla » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:04 pm

I think you’re incorrectly assuming the CBBL is expensive to produce. I don’t know for sure but my guess is it isn’t at all. The complicated is injection molded plastic. The spring is a common coil spring. You need a spacer but it can be a pretty simple part to make.

So you want an axis lock Spyderco. Could be cool.

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Sharp Guy
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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby Sharp Guy » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:04 pm

I could be wrong but I thought Sal said a while back that they weren't really interested in making a knife with the axis lock. I have a few BMs with axis locks. They're ok but don't feel like I need a Spydie with one.
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BigWillie
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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby BigWillie » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:25 am

zhyla wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:04 pm
I think you’re incorrectly assuming the CBBL is expensive to produce. I don’t know for sure but my guess is it isn’t at all. The complicated is injection molded plastic. The spring is a common coil spring. You need a spacer but it can be a pretty simple part to make.

So you want an axis lock Spyderco. Could be cool.
Well it is more expensive to make than a pin and springs...

15 dollar knives have axis locks. Just low quality ones

The bigger issue is CBBL won't fit into the PM2 form factor I don't think. Not 100% tho

Otherwise why not put the harder use lock on your most popular knife? The obvious answer is the CBBL wouldn't work in that form factor

BigWillie
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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby BigWillie » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:28 am

Sharp Guy wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:04 pm
I could be wrong but I thought Sal said a while back that they weren't really interested in making a knife with the axis lock. I have a few BMs with axis locks. They're ok but don't feel like I need a Spydie with one.
CBBL/Pin and SPring are superior to compression, frame, liner by a wide margin. The frame will fail on a CBBL/Axis before the lock does

Here is blade HQ doing tests https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERxHUXAFVs4

Now I dunno how a BM would fair. But obviously I would want spyderco to do theri own spin on whatever worked best for teh PM2 in their eyes so testing the BM doesn't really matter.

Point is just looking at the things you should be able to see how sturdy something like a CBBL is relative to a compression lock.

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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby ferider » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:45 am

I like the CBBL - a lot. No idea about Pin and Spring locks of other companies.

I don't think there is enough room around the tang in a PM2 for the CBBL.

What don't you like about the Manix 2 ? The blade shape ? With the budget that you have in mind, you can easily have somebody grind you an M2 blade to have a flat back. PM2 and M2 belly are similar. With the M2 you could also pick from a large variety of available steels, grinds, etc.

Also, have you looked at the Spyderco D'Allara ? Similar size.

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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:48 am

Big Willie...check out this thread. This could be what you're looking for, for a very low price too.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=82534
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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby Sharp Guy » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:59 am

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:48 am
Big Willie...check out this thread. This could be what you're looking for, for a very low price too.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=82534
^ Not sure that's appropriate here
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Sharp Guy
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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby Sharp Guy » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:01 am

BigWillie wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:28 am
CBBL/Pin and SPring are superior to compression, frame, liner by a wide margin. The frame will fail on a CBBL/Axis before the lock does
That's debatable regardless of what you've seen on YouTube.
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zhyla
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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby zhyla » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:05 am

BigWillie wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:25 am
Well it is more expensive to make than a pin and springs...
Nothing is ever cheaper than injection molded plastic and off the shelf parts like coil springs and ball bearings. It's probably of comparable cost to an axis lock since that omega spring has to be fabricated custom for that lock.

The axis lock also requires clearance for the omega spring between a liner and the scale. Maybe there are other configurations where that isn't the case, I'm just going from pictures of Benchmades. That won't work specifically on the PM2 because the liners are nested into the scales which makes the scales very thin.

Machining that clearance into a scale is a manufacturing step that will cost money too.
BigWillie wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:25 am
The bigger issue is CBBL won't fit into the PM2 form factor I don't think. Not 100% tho
The cage as it is may be a tad wide. I think the Manix 2 is slightly fatter than then PM2 because the liners aren't nested.
BigWillie wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:28 am
CBBL/Pin and SPring are superior to compression, frame, liner by a wide margin.
Can you please just say axis lock so people know what you're talking about? And stating categorically that one lock type is superior to others is really pretty silly. People have a lot of varying preferences for lock types. Generally speaking nobody here really cares about lock failures under artificial loads.

By the way, while hopefully current gen CBBL cages are bullet proof, the first get (clear plastic) cages are prone to failure from normal use.

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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby Tucson Tom » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:08 am

BigWillie wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:27 pm
I don't call it the Axis because I don't wanna just talk crap about benchmade/griptillian
Funny, that is my absolute favorite knife in the entire Benchmade lineup! With the contoured FRN scales, it is pretty doggone nice, and when you get the variant with the round Spyderco hole, you really have a nice knife.

Now if we could get Benchmade to produce that model with a compression lock, we would really have something!

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Re: Can We Please Have a PM2 with CBBL or a Pin and Springs Lock?

Postby rangefinder » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:32 am

BigWillie wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:27 pm
I don't call it the Axis because I don't wanna just talk crap about benchmade/griptillian etc, and more importantly I'm pretty sure they can't call it an axis lock in their advertised specs. So I gave it a generic name. Pin and springs lock sounds about as generic as it gets

I'm not a big fan of the compression lock next to the pin and springs. Although I would prefer it over most other common lock types. Easy one handed use is important to me

The ganzo knives are proof of why they should do this

There is no shame in it, they built themselves on the backs of great American ideas.

There is obviously a market for this. And again while a compression lock is ok. It ain't no axis lock.

I don't think many people are buying PM2's because they love the lock, they love the ergos, trust the steel, and trust the tolerances/warranty. And the look grows on you too. Not to mention a narrow point is difficult to go without once you've had it.

If there was one obvious negative to the PM2 it is it's lock. It would crush the 941 in sales if it had something like an axis lock

I did. :) The first Spyderco knife I bought was the original Paramilitary back in 2005. I bought a Spyderco because of the opening hole, and I bought that specific model of Spyderco because of the compression lock. (I still have that knife, and still carry it some. But at this point two PM2 models rotate as my primary EDC knife.)


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