A plea to Spyderco:

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Mattysc42
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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby Mattysc42 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:53 pm

sal wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:46 pm
Hi Baron Mind,

The downside is non afi's twisting the edge and chipping it. Any of our knives will take a thin edge and a knowledgeable knife person can handle that. But not all of our customers know as much as knife afi's and we get them back broken. That's why we had to strengthen the tips on the Endura family models.

sal
Very true. The only way I could see this working is if the knives are priced high enough to compensate for broken blades and discourage unknowledgeable buyers. Not exactly good for high sales. Doing enthusiast edition sprints in small runs would be the only way I could see this working out for spyderco.

I’m not particularly knowledgeable about business though, so maybe someone else will work out a more viable method.
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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:25 am

sal wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:46 pm
Hi Baron Mind,

The downside is non afi's twisting the edge and chipping it. Any of our knives will take a thin edge and a knowledgeable knife person can handle that. But not all of our customers know as much as knife afi's and we get them back broken. That's why we had to strengthen the tips on the Endura family models.

sal
This is one of the greatest statements I have ever read from you, sal, and explains the situation perfectly. I gladly admit, I am one who prefers thicker grinds and thicker edges rather than thinner ones. I prefer the stronger, more resilient toughness of the blade even if it means less thin edged cutting power.

This is one reason why I love the Endura 4 and the Pacific Salt. Those are winning blade configurations.

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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby Gslben13 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:34 am

What if you put a disclaimer in the package and had a limited warranty. Note that it’s intended for slicing and only designed as such. Some wording explaining that it’s a specialist type SKU so folks would realize that you stand by your products but this particular model was designed for a small segment of enthusiast.

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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby steelcity16 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:33 am

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:25 am
sal wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:46 pm
Hi Baron Mind,

The downside is non afi's twisting the edge and chipping it. Any of our knives will take a thin edge and a knowledgeable knife person can handle that. But not all of our customers know as much as knife afi's and we get them back broken. That's why we had to strengthen the tips on the Endura family models.

sal
This is one of the greatest statements I have ever read from you, sal, and explains the situation perfectly. I gladly admit, I am one who prefers thicker grinds and thicker edges rather than thinner ones. I prefer the stronger, more resilient toughness of the blade even if it means less thin edged cutting power.

This is one reason why I love the Endura 4 and the Pacific Salt. Those are winning blade configurations.

I agree. I would buy a super thin Delica flash batch for the novelty of it, but I sure as heck don't want them to start grinding their production models thinner.
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sal
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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby sal » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:16 am

Hi Matty,

Charging more to compensate for added labor of dealing with a problem of broken blades that is more easily dealt with by not creating the problem in the first place?

Gslben,

A disclaimer does the same thing. It gives us a "out" or "cover our a$$" for an avoidable problem. So when the broken blades do come in, we can say "It's not our fault". We still have a broken blade and an unhappy customer.

sal

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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby MichaelScott » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:35 am

From what I am reading it appears that getting a thinner edge on your knife is easily done with the correct equipment and knowledge. And, that for the majority of users, the current configurations are just fine.

Why try to change what works for everyone else? Do it yourself.
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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby The Meat man » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:23 am

MichaelScott wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:35 am
From what I am reading it appears that getting a thinner edge on your knife is easily done with the correct equipment and knowledge. And, that for the majority of users, the current configurations are just fine.

Why try to change what works for everyone else? Do it yourself.

The discussion has shifted:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79799&start=140

What is now under consideration is not a change to Spyderco's entire line-up - I agree that that would be problematic - but a special, limited "flashbatch" or Sprint Run of thinly ground knives. This way, Spyderco could satisfy their edge-obsessed users while avoiding the larger problems of compromising the integrity of their knives as a whole.

Whether this idea is feasible for Spyderco as a business remains to be seen, but I for one am wholeheartedly in favor of it, and Sal himself seems at least open to the idea.
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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby Evil D » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:28 am

People who say this won't work need to go buy an Opinel.
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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby jpm2 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:20 pm

A $12 opinel would be a good experiment. Slap a 30 degree inclusive edge on and see how it holds up.

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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby PStone » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:42 pm

Evil D wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:28 am
People who say this won't work need to go buy an Opinel.
+1
Image
I’ve had my No.8 for many years. Hasn’t broke or chipped yet. And I’m not that easy on it either. It’s just that every time I sharpen it, it gets just a tad thicker bte because of the flat grind. Granted not a huge issue since it’s so thin to begin with, and it’ll take a bazillion sharpenings before I ever to get to a point where I will notice a drop in performance(if ever). But that could easily be done by serious edge afi/junky though. That’s why I think a full height hollow grind would make a lot of sense. A 2.5-3mm stock can still be used with a full hollow ground to a very thin edge. That would keep the strength of the thicker stock, but allow .015 bte after repeated sharpenings/reprofiles almost halfway through the entire height of the knife. The grind I’m picturing is close to a Buck 113 Skinner. Only with a better plunge grind that goes further back.
Image

Maybe Spyderco already produces something like this and I am unaware.

Edit: I didn’t realize there were two different thin edge topics. Everything I am saying is meant to be directed towards an AFI flash batch/sprint. NOT to Spydercos full lineup. I am quite happy with Spydercos regular production grinds.
Last edited by PStone on Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sal
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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby sal » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:52 pm

Hi DirtMcGirt,

Thought about it, but haven't done it. Made a G.Sakai fixed blade years ago with a high hollow. A Delica with a high hollow would be interesting? It has a 2.5mm blade thickness.

sal

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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby PStone » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:00 pm

sal wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:52 pm
Hi DirtMcGirt,

Thought about it, but haven't done it. Made a G.Sakai fixed blade years ago with a high hollow. A Delica with a high hollow would be interesting? It has a 2.5mm blade thickness.

sal
I was editing my post when you replied. I am so glad you knew that I wasn’t referring to your regular production blades. I will do some searching to find more about the G. Sakai you referred to. And Yes! A high hollow delica afi sprint would be awesome. Perfect size for legality, lightweight, and multitude of steels to choose from. *cough* superblue *cough*
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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby demoncase » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:32 pm

When certain brands make a big thing out of their blades being thicker and thus "stronger" than anyone else....I'd keep the thickness 'mix' in the range the way it is.
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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby TomAiello » Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:01 pm

sal wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:52 pm
Hi DirtMcGirt,

Thought about it, but haven't done it. Made a G.Sakai fixed blade years ago with a high hollow. A Delica with a high hollow would be interesting? It has a 2.5mm blade thickness.

sal
High Hollow is vastly underrated.

I actually find that for a majority of my cutting tasks, high hollow grinds work better than full flat grinds.

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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby The Meat man » Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:09 pm

sal wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:52 pm
Hi DirtMcGirt,

Thought about it, but haven't done it. Made a G.Sakai fixed blade years ago with a high hollow. A Delica with a high hollow would be interesting? It has a 2.5mm blade thickness.

sal

A high hollow Delica, either VG-10 or Super Blue, with a BTE of 0.010 or less, sounds like the perfect candidate for an afi flashbatch.
- Connor

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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby Baron Mind » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:09 pm

MichaelScott wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:35 am
From what I am reading it appears that getting a thinner edge on your knife is easily done with the correct equipment and knowledge. And, that for the majority of users, the current configurations are just fine.

Why try to change what works for everyone else? Do it yourself.
I was going to let this go as I am happy enough that Sal is at least considering running one model in the other, "afi/performance flash batch" thread (partly because I'm just appreciative, and partly because I think people will love them, and that would inevitably lead to more models in the future) but I think it's important to address this point.

People seem to be confusing edge angle with behind the edge thickness. It is easy to reprofile the edge to a lower angle, it is much more difficult to thin the entire blade by RAISING the primary grind angle. What I am proposing doesn't require a change in factory stock thickness, or a change in factory edge angle, but an increased primary grind angle, the angle that goes from the spine to the beginning of the edge bevel. You can increase that angle slightly without changing the stock thickness or the blade height, and you end up with a much better cutter. Drawings are helpful, and there are a few really good videos on YouTube illustrating these concepts that I'd be happy to link if anyone would be interested in watching them.

I think the people opposed to this idea are under the impression that this would radically change the knives they know and love. In actuality the knives would look and feel virtually identical, they would just pass through materials with a tendency to bind, like cardboard, much easier.

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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby Baron Mind » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:35 pm

jpm2 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:20 pm
A $12 opinel would be a good experiment. Slap a 30 degree inclusive edge on and see how it holds up.
This discussion, and Evil D's comment aren't referring to edge angle, but rather the main blade angle, and depending on that angle, how thick the blade is at the bottom of the blade, opposite of the spine, where you then apply your edge bevel too. The thinner the blade is closest to the edge, the easier it will cut.

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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby Wim Anders » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:31 pm

Wow, I somehow missed this topic in June! Sorry for replying to an older thread ... Also, I'm from Belgium, so pardon my English as well. ;)

I purchased multiple Spydercos: PM2 in s110v, Para 3 CF in s90v, 3 natives (Maxamet, fluted s90v, and Salt), the Spydiechef, Kapara, Sage 5, Techno and Chaparral in FRN. I love each and everyone of them. I own almost no other knives. Yet since I've bought the Manly Wasp in s90v, my Spydercos' performance seem lacking. It's the thickness behind the edge.

I am convinced that as a company that aims for high performance, Spyderco should address the issue. Now, I do remember the Nilakka incident a few years ago. It was an extremely efficient slicer, but because of the association with a sturdy Puukko the customer expected a higher level of toughness. Managing expectations through communication and knife model choice is an important take away, I think. This drives my suggestions below: when can thin edges be effectively communicated?

It's not easy to point at a current model to have thin edges on their blade. For instance: I don't think the Delica would be a good candidate. This is the first real 'good knife' many people buy. I don't think that 10 thou BTE would render a steel much more likely to chip, but a person's first knife might not be the best idea.

Unfortunately, what is a good choice for myself, would perhaps not be the best choice for Spyderco. I would *love* a Para 3 that's thin BTE. But I don't think the PM2 should be (as it is often the first 'hard user' that people buy) and the Para is positioned as an equally capable sibling. Thin edges would be difficult to communicate.

I think the Sage lightweight series might be a good candidate. They already have some of the thinnest BTE, I hear. They don't have the hard use image of the PM2 and Para 3. Things are currently changing with the Sages, too. They're no longer just exhibition pieces for lock types (unless the lightweight compression lock is considered a separate lock). The handle material changes. I hear there are different steel option in the future as well. In terms of managing and even creating expectations, the 'new' Sage series would be a safe start. I would buy it in a heartbeat.

The spydiechef is another, and more obvious, candidate . People don't consider it a hard use knife, but a slicer that could feel at home in a kitchen. A thinner edge might even be framed as a CQI.

Finally, the native line. Maybe it's wishful thinking as it would be my own first choice. The native has been a platform for so many steels: s35vn, m4, cruwaer, s90v, s110v, maxamet, lc200n. It is a model that people actually associate with a platform. People that buy a native in maxamet have different expectations from those that buy the lc200n one. There is a potential here for a thin BTE option or line. People would 'get' it. I would buy it. In a heartbeat.

Now for new models. I read that a potential collaboration with Shawn might be coming up. This *has* to be thin BTE as that's his trademark. If the model is even halfway decent (and preferably not too large for EDC in Belgium), it's a must buy for me.

Thanks for having me on this forum.

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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby elena86 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:36 am

sal wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:52 pm
Hi DirtMcGirt,

Thought about it, but haven't done it. Made a G.Sakai fixed blade years ago with a high hollow. A Delica with a high hollow would be interesting? It has a 2.5mm blade thickness.

sal

Yessss !!! I would buy at least four ! The fact that Delica has a 2.5 mm blade stock yet is thicker behind the edge than a PM2 or a Manix is just... inapprehensible ... to say at least :(
Marius

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Re: A plea to Spyderco:

Postby bbturbodad » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:26 pm

Wim Anders wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:31 pm
Yet since I've bought the Manly Wasp in s90v, my Spydercos' performance seem lacking. It's the thickness behind the edge.
I have a Manly Wasp that measured .006" BTE when I received it and while it is a slicely knife I rarely use it because the ergonomics of the Spyderco slip joints (Spydie holes are awesome) are SO MUCH BETTER. I choose to use an Urban (especially the K390 model which is the thinnest BTE Spyderco I own) over the Wasp almost every time. I never feel that either need to be babied and for tasks like cutting cardboard really excel.

Worth mentioning the Chaparral is an excellent too and not nearly as thin BTE. So in my experience blade stock thickness also plays a role.
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