HRC Database

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Banter 247
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Re: HRC Database

Postby Banter 247 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:28 am

I had no idea this thread was a thing until Kurt shared it in our steel chat this morning.

I’m still groggy— it’s 7:12am where I live, and I haven’t had my coffee, yet. I just wanted to take the time to create an account here and thank the special corner of the community who have an active interest in learning.

All of the guys involved in this, whether they’re focusing on the data, or in helping familiarize people with how the pieces fit together, are very passionate about this. Seeing that people are absorbing it, makes a world of difference.

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ZrowsN1s
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Re: HRC Database

Postby ZrowsN1s » Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:47 am

Awesome to see the contributors posting in the thread and on the forum. Welcome! Thank you again! :D
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jpm2
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Re: HRC Database

Postby jpm2 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:32 am

Is there any reliable way to test a cladded steel like hap40/sus410?

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attila
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Re: HRC Database

Postby attila » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:28 pm

wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:32 am
Is there any reliable way to test a cladded steel like hap40/sus410?
I think the only option for that is to grind through the cladding. With great care, there's likely enough room around a Spydie hole and the kick/ricasso to do that without structurally compromising the blade.
Own: Delica, yOld S30V Native, pointy Breeden Rescue, Delica, HAP40 Endura, ZDP DF2, S110V Manix LW,Pakka Delica, Cru-wear Para 3, SE H1 DF2, M4 Manix, HAP40 Caly 3, S90V Native 5, K390 Urban, Pakka DF2, Cruwear PM2, SE Pac Salt, HAP40 Jazzlica, S110V Native, P.I.T.S., DLC Manix, REX 45 PM2, Para 3, XHP Manix LW, SB Caly 3, 20CV PM2, Rhino, SB Calypso Jr., B70P, PMA11, K03, ZDP Stretch 2, Kapara, REX 45 Military, 154CM Manix LW, 204p PM2, Swick, SG Delica, BL Lil'Native, AEB-L Urban, HAP40 Stretch, KC Cruwear Manix,Cruwear Military, M390 PM2, Cruwear Delica, 4V Lil'Native, Mantra 2, CruCarta Shaman, M390 Para 3 LW, M390 Manix, K390 Police 4, RexWood Shaman, DLC Cruwear Shaman, Rex 45 Manix, Native 5, Native LW, 204p Para 3, S45VN PM2, S90V Manix LW, 20CV Manix, Rex 45 Lil’Native, Shaman, C208GP Cruwear Manix

Waiting for: SPY27, K490, Swick 5, and something purple
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Re: HRC Database

Postby jcoolG19 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:48 pm

attila wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:28 pm
wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:32 am
Is there any reliable way to test a cladded steel like hap40/sus410?
I think the only option for that is to grind through the cladding. With great care, there's likely enough room around a Spydie hole and the kick/ricasso to do that without structurally compromising the blade.
Exactly! No real way without ruining the knife. You would need to remove a half inch area from both sides.

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Re: HRC Database

Postby jcoolG19 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:53 pm

Here is the list of Spyderco knives tested to date. 61 knives in the order that we have tested them. Lowest is a VG-10 Endura at 57.9, and the highest is the 2nd Manix lwt Maxamet at 69.

1. Native Lwt S35VN 60
2. Manix Lwt BD1 59
3. Para 3 M390 59.6
4. Para 3 S35VN 59.6
5. Manix 2 Lockback S30V 60
6. Endura VG-10 57.9
7. Endura ZDP-189 63.1
8. Military Rex45 67 twice
9. Amalgam S30V 60.7
10. PM2 S110V 60.9
11. Para 3 Cruwear 61.7
12. PM2 52100 62.8
13. Para 3 Rex45 64.7 (listed wrong on chart)
14. Manix Lwt Maxamet 66.2
15. Manix Lwt S90V 59.9
16. Tenacious 8Cr13MoV 57.6
17. Police 4 K390 65.5
18. Chaparell XHP 62
19. Para 3 S30V 60.3
20. PM2 S110V 62
21. Military Rex45 66.3 twice
22. Manix 2 Cruwear 63.2
23. Para 3 M4 63
24. PM2 M390 62
25. Para 3 4V 64.8
26. Manix 2 Cruwear 63.7
27. Manix 2 20CV 60.6
28. Para 3 M390 60
29. PM2 Cruwear 62
30. Spydiechef LC200N 57.8 & 58.1
31. Manix 2 M4 64.2
32. Byrd Raven2 BD1 58.3
33. PM2 S30V 59 & 58.8
34. Roadie N690 57.8
35. Military Cruwear 62.9
36. Mule RWL34 60
37. Mule LC200N 56.8
38. Mule PMA11 62.5
39. Mule PSF27 61.9
40. UKPK BD1N 60
41. Delica ZDP-189 63.2, 64.8, 64.2 & 64.2 (severe problems holding edge, PMI scan showed Zinc)
42. Mule 20CV 60
43. Mule XHP 60
44. Mule M4 60.8
45. Mule M390 59.2
46. Dragonfly ZDP-189 63.1
47. Tenacious (red) 8Cr13MoV 56.8
48. Police 4 K390 65.2
49. UKPK? (slipit) BD1 59.1
50. Manix 2 Lwt Maxamet 69 twice
51. Manix 2 4V 65
52. GB2 M4 63.1
53. Delica VG-10 58
54. PM2 M4 64.3
55. Manix 2 S30V 60.1
56. Shaman M4 63.9
57. PM2 Cruwear 62
58. PM2 Rex45 66.6 & 66.7
59. Calypso Jr Superblue 60.8
60. Delica Wharncliff S30V 59
61. Para 3 4V 64.8
Last edited by jcoolG19 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ZrowsN1s
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Re: HRC Database

Postby ZrowsN1s » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:45 pm

jcoolG19 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:53 pm
Here is the list of Spyderco knives tested to date. 61 knives in the order that we have tested them. Lowest is a VG-10 Endura at 57.9, and the highest is the 2nd Manix lwt Maxamet at 69.
......
WOW. Awesome :D Thank you, I'll update the list when i have a minute. Could you tell me more about the zdp delica with the trouble holding an edge that showed zinc? Which zdp measurement was it? Or was it all of the delica zdp measurements?

Also the rex45 para3 @64.7 which chart was it wrong on? The google docs spreadsheet? Thats where I think I pulled the 65.7 number from. I'll change it if thats the case.
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Banter 247
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Re: HRC Database

Postby Banter 247 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:48 pm

To any interested parties, Gerald at Outpost76 on YouTube just put up an edge retention test, run three times, to verify performance range, on his channel. It’s a PM2 in M390, tested at 62hrc. When compared to multiple edge retention tests of 57-59hrc M390/20CV/204P, this is jaw dropping. The performance increase is ... substantial.

Now... as a buyer, there is a spot of bad news. It seems likely that, as Kenny from InthePocket suggested in our chat, there may only be a small number of optimal hardness samples per production batch.

One of the challenges to delivering this family of steels at peak hardness is moving them from oven to quench fast enough. In a batch of 2-3 blades (common custom batch size), with stations close together, it’s not prohibitively tricky. In production scale, only a small segment of the batch is likely to get there fast enough. As a result, it should be fairly common to see hrc distribution across same-batch samples range from 57-62, with the vast majority between 57-59. We’re unlikely to ever see production steel from this family hit 63-64, which has been done in 2-3 blade batch sizes. These steels don’t seem to be tolerant of slow transitions in the ht process.

This would neatly explain why Spyderco consistently nails ht on so many steels, including less common stuff peaking as high as 69hrc (Maxamet) and the like, while consistently missing optimal range with this family and Elmax, which is very close in composition.

In other words, it’s a crap shoot right now.
Last edited by Banter 247 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

jcoolG19
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Re: HRC Database

Postby jcoolG19 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:45 am

ZrowsN1s wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:45 pm
WOW. Awesome :D Thank you, I'll update the list when i have a minute. Could you tell me more about the zdp delica with the trouble holding an edge that showed zinc? Which zdp measurement was it? Or was it all of the delica zdp measurements?

Also the rex45 para3 @64.7 which chart was it wrong on? The google docs spreadsheet? Thats where I think I pulled the 65.7 number from. I'll change it if thats the case.
The ZDP Delica is Outpost76's. He was having some strange issues with it. I ran a couple PMI tests and they showed some zinc in it. I took 4 readings on the Rockwell test. He is going to contact Spyderco about it.
Yes, the Rex45 Para 3 on the spreadsheet is listed wrong. I have to have BladeBanter fix that.
If anyone has any questions, please ask. I try to be as transparent as I can with it.

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ZrowsN1s
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Re: HRC Database

Postby ZrowsN1s » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:58 am

jcoolG19 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:45 am
The ZDP Delica is Outpost76's. He was having some strange issues with it. I ran a couple PMI tests and they showed some zinc in it. I took 4 readings on the Rockwell test. He is going to contact Spyderco about it.
Yes, the Rex45 Para 3 on the spreadsheet is listed wrong. I have to have BladeBanter fix that.
If anyone has any questions, please ask. I try to be as transparent as I can with it.
Ok thank you! I'll change the Rex numbers and I think I'll leave the ZDP-189 Delica results off the list as it seems to be a defective blade and not representative of the majority of the ZDP-189 Delicas.
Banter 247 wrote: To any interested parties, Gerald at Outpost76 on YouTube just put up an edge retention test, run three times, to verify performance range, on his channel. It’s a PM2 in M390, tested at 62hrc. When compared to multiple edge retention tests of 57-59hrc M390/20CV/204P, this is jaw dropping. The performance increase is ... substantial.

Now... as a buyer, there is a spot of bad news. It seems likely that, as Kenny from InthePocket suggested in our chat, there may only be a small number of optimal hardness samples per production batch.

One of the challenges to delivering this family of steels at peak hardness is moving them from oven to quench fast enough. In a batch of 2-3 blades (common custom batch size), with stations close together, it’s not prohibitively tricky. In production scale, only a small segment of the batch is likely to get there fast enough. As a result, it should be fairly common to see hrc distribution across same-batch samples range from 57-62, with the vast majority between 57-59. We’re unlikely to ever see production steel from this family hit 63-64, which has been done in 2-3 blade batch sizes. These steels don’t seem to be tolerant of slow transitions in the ht process.

This would neatly explain why Spyderco consistently nails ht on so many steels, including less common stuff peaking as high as 69hrc (Maxamet) and the like, while consistently missing optimal range with this family and Elmax, which is very close in composition.

In other words, it’s a crap shoot right now.
That is interesting. It makes sense that fast transitions are hard in large batches. Thanks for the info! I saw that Outpost76 had posted the edge retention video I just hadn't had a chance to watch it yet.
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ZrowsN1s
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Re: HRC Database

Postby ZrowsN1s » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:27 pm

Well the list just got a lot bigger! THANK YOU! again to JcoolG19 for taking the time to compile all these numbers for us .
👊


We have a new top dog on the list,

a MAXAMET LW tested at 69HRC :eek:

I said it on Instagram but it bears repeating here. If you don't have a MAXAMET Lightweight in your collection, I don't know what to say other than the boat left and you weren't on the boat......
🤷‍♂️
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Re: HRC Database

Postby The Meat man » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:36 pm

Banter 247 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:48 pm
...As a result, it should be fairly common to see hrc distribution across same-batch samples range from 57-62...
Really? That's a huge spread.

I know next to nothing about heat treating, but it surprises me greatly that Spyderco can't get a heat treat any more consistent than +/- 5 HRC points.
- Connor

"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

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ZrowsN1s
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Re: HRC Database

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:37 pm

The Meat man wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:36 pm
Banter 247 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:48 pm
...As a result, it should be fairly common to see hrc distribution across same-batch samples range from 57-62...
Really? That's a huge spread.

I know next to nothing about heat treating, but it surprises me greatly that Spyderco can't get a heat treat any more consistent than +/- 5 HRC points.
Those aren't Spyderco's numbers, those are numbers in general. Of the Spydies tested so far the spread is 59.2 to 62.
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Banter 247
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Re: HRC Database

Postby Banter 247 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:41 am

The Meat man wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:36 pm
Banter 247 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:48 pm
...As a result, it should be fairly common to see hrc distribution across same-batch samples range from 57-62...
Really? That's a huge spread.

I know next to nothing about heat treating, but it surprises me greatly that Spyderco can't get a heat treat any more consistent than +/- 5 HRC points.
To be clear, Spyderco is doing an extremely good job of delivering in their advertised range, in general. Now, advertised range sometimes matches optimal range (S30V, M4, etc), and sometimes falls a little below (optimal for M390/20CV/204P, for cutlery, would be around 62-64, assuming a dialed in process to get there).

The 57-62 I called out would be a range you’d see with ... let’s say extremely large batch size. The smaller the batch size, the easier it is to manage travel time/time to quench after heating, which makes it more likely that you would see a narrow spread, and less likely to see bottom end outliers. With the M390/20CV/204P family, as well as Elmax (very similar composition) and certain other steels, the window of time to ensure a range of 61-62 is pretty tight. I have no doubts that Spyderco ht people could hit that range consistently if they had the luxury of working with custom scale batch sizes.

Now, there are a few different methods for quench, so there are a few different ways to tackle the time problem with these steels. One is batch size, another could come from method, but either way, it’s tricky on a production scale.

It may be the case that they’re working with methods or batch sizes that allow them to continue to deliver in a range of 59-62. My 57-62 call was a spitball, with the possibility of 57-58 creeping in if the batch sizes were really huge, or the methods used weren’t exceptionally quick. For reference, we’ve seen hits that low on M390 with other production scale companies (Bestech, WE), and contrary to what a lot of people think about the “why” behind that, I believe it has more to do with problem solving the process than it does with greed. Circling back to Spyderco, specifically, the “greed” angle makes zero sense, whatsoever. They’re consistently delivering steels like Maxamet, M4, XHP, K390, Cruwear, etc at optimal, high ranges, so it would stand to reason that they aren’t cutting corners willfully to save on grinding belt costs or other types of suggestions that I’ve heard.

My suggestion is that it’s a challenge related to how fast certain compositions bleed peak hardness in the transition.

In the days ahead, as testing continues, we may see other companies hit in tighter ranges with those tricky steels. As people do, I would expect to see people immediately respond with a knee jerk “why can’t everyone do it, if such and such can do it?” For the sake of interest, I’d encourage people to key in on the relative production volume of those companies and models. For example, if Reate starts accumulating 60-62 hits consistently, well... remember how many M390 PM2s are in the world as opposed to Reate Waves, etc.

Sorry for the wall of text. Also, to those curious, no. I am not a metallurgist or a knife maker. I’m just a guy on the Internet, and am probably not very bright. 🤙🏻

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Re: HRC Database

Postby jpm2 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:21 am

57-62 is +/- 3, I think reasonable considering large production batches, batch to batch, and hardness testing error tolerances.
59-62 is +/- 2, I think exceptionable for large production.

I would expect +/- 1 only for small batch custom.

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Re: HRC Database

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:14 pm

jpm2 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:21 am
57-62 is +/- 3, I think reasonable considering large production batches, batch to batch, and hardness testing error tolerances.
59-62 is +/- 2, I think exceptionable for large production.

I would expect +/- 1 only for small batch custom.
Spyderco has very tight tolerances. Best in the production world. The alleged problem with m390 20cv 204p is the performance difference within that variance. 57-59hrc gets you an ok knife, 62-64 gets you an exceptional knife.
So as a consumer how are you to know which you're getting when you order a knife in those steels?
It might be the case that those steels aren't ideal for production knives. I'd be curious what people who know a lot more than me have to say about it though.
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Banter 247
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Re: HRC Database

Postby Banter 247 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:11 pm

ZrowsN1s wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:14 pm
jpm2 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:21 am
57-62 is +/- 3, I think reasonable considering large production batches, batch to batch, and hardness testing error tolerances.
59-62 is +/- 2, I think exceptionable for large production.

I would expect +/- 1 only for small batch custom.
Spyderco has very tight tolerances. Best in the production world. The alleged problem with m390 20cv 204p is the performance difference within that variance. 57-59hrc gets you an ok knife, 62-64 gets you an exceptional knife.
So as a consumer how are you to know which you're getting when you order a knife in those steels?
It might be the case that those steels aren't ideal for production knives. I'd be curious what people who know a lot more than me have to say about it though.
I typed a really long reply about it at like 430am pst, but it appears to have been eaten by the ‘held for review’ monster.

Given smaller scale production and the right method for managing time, I could see that family (and Elmax, which has very similar composition) delivering very good performance at 60-62hrc.

My prediction is that we’ll see Reate, Shiro, and other smaller production run companies average higher hrc with those particular steels.

Edit: cracking up over here. I see now that it finally dropped in.

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Re: HRC Database

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:41 pm

Banter 247 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:11 pm
ZrowsN1s wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:14 pm
jpm2 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:21 am
57-62 is +/- 3, I think reasonable considering large production batches, batch to batch, and hardness testing error tolerances.
59-62 is +/- 2, I think exceptionable for large production.

I would expect +/- 1 only for small batch custom.
Spyderco has very tight tolerances. Best in the production world. The alleged problem with m390 20cv 204p is the performance difference within that variance. 57-59hrc gets you an ok knife, 62-64 gets you an exceptional knife.
So as a consumer how are you to know which you're getting when you order a knife in those steels?
It might be the case that those steels aren't ideal for production knives. I'd be curious what people who know a lot more than me have to say about it though.
I typed a really long reply about it at like 430am pst, but it appears to have been eaten by the ‘held for review’ monster.

Given smaller scale production and the right method for managing time, I could see that family (and Elmax, which has very similar composition) delivering very good performance at 60-62hrc.

My prediction is that we’ll see Reate, Shiro, and other smaller production run companies average higher hrc with those particular steels.

Edit: cracking up over here. I see now that it finally dropped in.
I see your post now :D
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Re: HRC Database

Postby The Meat man » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:43 pm

Thanks for the responses. As I said, heat treatment protocol is largely a sealed book to me but I always enjoy learning more. This forum is great for that. :)
- Connor

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Re: HRC Database

Postby Luvthemknives » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:28 pm

Thanks for the mention in your post. Kurt told me that my name was mentioned. You can see the link to the spreadsheet of test results on any of my recent videos. I’ll also be posting the link to the actual cutting test performance spreadsheet as well in my Traders Corner Video tomorrow. Thanks to the hard work and dedication of Outpost 76, Super Steel Steve, Bladebanter and several others that will be mentioned tomorrow. I’ll also be discussing some important information that we as a group have discovered about M390 heat treatment overall. I’m just on a learning curve as well but I’m concerned and not pleased with the overall M390 heat treatment to date from anyone in particular. Even less the LionSteel Knives.


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