Does it bother anyone else...?
Does it bother anyone else...?
...that the flipper on the Smock has been dubbed a "front flipper" when it is basically in the same position as every other flipper tab Spyderco has produced. I assume it has stemmed from the design looking so similar to a lot of front flippers in that the flipper is an exposed section of the tang. It is in the same location as the Ikuchi wheel but no one has referred to that as a front wheel flipper.
Probably because IT ISN'T ON THE FRONT.
Probably because IT ISN'T ON THE FRONT.
- GiftedMisfit
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Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
Doesn't bug me one bit. It works. It flips. I dont care what they call it.
ladybug93 wrote: And now I'm wondering how a translator will render "butt hurt"
Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
Yes it does! Just like calling the PM3 a Paramilitary 3, instead of Door Stop. :rolleyes:
I'm a stickler for accurate descriptions. :p
I'm a stickler for accurate descriptions. :p
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Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
Nope. Never payed much attention to flippers so the thought never crossed my mind.
- Surfingringo
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Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
It’s not? What are you referring to as “the front” of a knife? It’s a serious question. In this context, I would consider the end where the pivot is the front of the knife. Some might even consider the presentation side the front of the knife.Drahkis wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2019 7:22 pm...that the flipper on the Smock has been dubbed a "front flipper" when it is basically in the same position as every other flipper tab Spyderco has produced. I assume it has stemmed from the design looking so similar to a lot of front flippers in that the flipper is an exposed section of the tang. It is in the same location as the Ikuchi wheel but no one has referred to that as a front wheel flipper.
Probably because IT ISN'T ON THE FRONT.
At any rate, it definitely doesn’t bother me. :)
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Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
I hear ya. Some people in the knife community have hijacked popular terms and wrongly use them on nearly everything just so they can sound "cool" and jump on the bandwagon. A prime example is wharncliffe blades. A wharncliffe used to be a very specific shape and you knew exactly what you were getting. Now "knife bros" have expanded it to mean all kinds of shapes just to hop on the wagon and the term is almost meaningless. For example, how can a knife like this Hogue be called a "Wharncliffe"?? https://www.amazon.com/Hogue-34443-Fold ... B008QYY508 :confused: It's quite sad.
As for the Smock, it's not a front flipper at all.
As for the Smock, it's not a front flipper at all.
Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
Call me what you want, just don’t call me late for dinner
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Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
Interesting topic.Drahkis wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2019 7:22 pm...that the flipper on the Smock has been dubbed a "front flipper" when it is basically in the same position as every other flipper tab Spyderco has produced. I assume it has stemmed from the design looking so similar to a lot of front flippers in that the flipper is an exposed section of the tang. It is in the same location as the Ikuchi wheel but no one has referred to that as a front wheel flipper.
Probably because IT ISN'T ON THE FRONT.
The "front-flippers" I've seen previously were all configured with the tab on the opposite side of the tang from where it is located on the smock, but that doesn't necessarily follow that it has to be on that side. It really just depends on what you consider the "front" or "back" of the knife to be.
"Front" comes from Latin for "forehead", but what determines the front vs side vs back of an inanimate object that is not anthropomorphically shaped? How do you feel about "OTF" (out the front) automatics like the benchmade infidel? Should they be called "out the side" autos? Do the people that use "front-flipper" for the smock or "OTF" for the infidel call a "back-lock" a "side-lock"?
Then again, "back" comes from old English/Germanic and was related to mountain ridges and/or the horizontal back of a quadruped. If I was going to ascribe a "forehead" to a closed folding knife, it would probably be in the vicinity of where the smocks's flipper is. Similarly if I had to do the same with a "ridge" it would be where a "back-lock" is typically located. I guess they both check out. It's still incredibly subjective, of course.
Maybe they should go medical/biomechanical with it and call them "lateral" or "medial" flippers? It's still subjective, but there are fewer preconceptions about what constitutes lateral of medial in a knife. We would probably just end up with the same confusion later on with different terms.
Did I over-analyze it? I feel as though I may have over-analyzed it.
TLDR: No, it doesn't really bother me.
Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
Depends on how you hold the knife and what you think of as the front.
Is the front the side with the clip (the "front" when it's in your pocket)? The sharp part of the blade (the "front" when you're cutting)? The pivot end (the "front when it's in your hand but closed)? The point of the blade (the "front" when it's in your hand but open)?
My wife and I go around this one repeatedly over (of all things) backpacks. For me, the "front" of a backpack is the side with the straps on it, that faces forward relative to you when you are wearing it. To her, the "front" of a backpack is the side furthest from your body because when the pack is on the ground that's the side that's facing out toward you. Who's right?
So maybe it is on the front--at least according to the designer.
- MichaelScott
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Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
Hmmm… Imprecision in speech or the written word will almost always, but not certainly, cause issues.
“Your stupid.”
“My stupid what?”
Perhaps it might be accurate to say: The the blade’s spine terminal end can be manipulated to flip the blade open.
But, as usual, but not always, pictures are more descriptive than words.
“Your stupid.”
“My stupid what?”
Perhaps it might be accurate to say: The the blade’s spine terminal end can be manipulated to flip the blade open.
But, as usual, but not always, pictures are more descriptive than words.
Overheard at the end of the ice age, “We’ve been having such unnatural weather.”
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- JacksonKnives
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Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
For what it's worth, I do call the Ikuchi a front flipper. I'm pretty sure Eric has referred to it that way in promotional appearances. I don't know why you think the term is inconsistently applied. Have you heard people say the Ikuchi is not a front flipper?Drahkis wrote: ...It is in the same location as the Ikuchi wheel but no one has referred to that as a front wheel flipper.
Probably because IT ISN'T ON THE FRONT.
IMO, this critique is pedantic and silly. No, it doesn't bug me, because the Smock/Ikuchi design is quite distinct from the Carson-style flipper. The tab doesn't stick out of the back of the handle, doesn't interfere with a compression lock, and the knife can be extremely narrow in pocket profile without reducing flipper effectiveness. Yes, flipping technique is more similar between a Smock and a Mantra than in comparison to a Shamwari, but they're not "the same."
By your definition, is the conventional Spyderco hole (on something like a PM2) a front flipper?
I agree with Notsurewhy that "front" is used consistently to refer to the bolster end of the closed knife when we're talking about automatics. For a pivot-opening knife, the channel and other long dimensions are consistently referred to as the "sides."
If you want to be really pedantic... these designs as flippers (not counting the traditional extended-tang designs like Douk-Douk et al.) originated in South Africa. See this post from Zenith.
By the original definitions, front refers to the bolster/pivot side of the handle, compared to the butt:
- A tab in-line with the pivot is a "front flipper." These are pretty rare.
- A tab in-line with the spine of the blade used to be a "lip flipper." (Cf.: Gareth Bull Shamwari, Mike Skellern/Fred Burger Exskelibur, Lundquist Feist, et al.)
The newer designs using the lock face as a flipper seem to have started with modifications to the old Burnley/Boker Kwaiken, as far as I can tell. That's also where Kevin Smock got started working on knives. (Note that he wasn't the only modder to grind the corner off the Kwaiken handle, and I don't think he came up with it.)
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Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
Life is way too short and complicated to worry about such things.
40 Spyderco knives in 11 different steels,
1 Byrd and 30 “others”
1 Byrd and 30 “others”
Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
Whos worried? I just like consistency and I feel that description is completely inconsistent with all other knives I've seen called front flippers.BLUETYPEII wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 1:01 pmLife is way too short and complicated to worry about such things.
If you make the case that the pivot end of the knife is the "front", pretty much EVERY flipper would be considered a front flipper.TomAiello wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 11:20 amDepends on how you hold the knife and what you think of as the front.
Is the front the side with the clip (the "front" when it's in your pocket)? The sharp part of the blade (the "front" when you're cutting)? The pivot end (the "front when it's in your hand but closed)? The point of the blade (the "front" when it's in your hand but open)?
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Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
This thread is a little mind-blowing. I really didn't think there was such a debate on what a front flipper is. To me, it's very simple.
If a Smock/Ikuchi is called a front flipper, than how would you make the distinction between those and a knife that you flip from the "front front"? :confused: Would you call it a front-front flipper?
If a Smock/Ikuchi is called a front flipper, than how would you make the distinction between those and a knife that you flip from the "front front"? :confused: Would you call it a front-front flipper?
Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
To me, your "back" and "front" labels should read "side" and "side". Or maybe "front" and "front".
"Front" would be the part away from the clip. "Back" would be the part near the clip. The red line should be drawn parallel to the line you've drawn.
The "front" flipper is to distinguish it from a "side" flipper. The "normal" flipper location is on the side, near the front. The "front" flipper is actually on the front (not the side).
"Front" would be the part away from the clip. "Back" would be the part near the clip. The red line should be drawn parallel to the line you've drawn.
The "front" flipper is to distinguish it from a "side" flipper. The "normal" flipper location is on the side, near the front. The "front" flipper is actually on the front (not the side).
Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
I would never say you are wrong...TomAiello wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 10:21 pmTo me, your "back" and "front" labels should read "side" and "side". Or maybe "front" and "front".
"Front" would be the part away from the clip. "Back" would be the part near the clip. The red line should be drawn parallel to the line you've drawn.
The "front" flipper is to distinguish it from a "side" flipper. The "normal" flipper location is on the side, near the front. The "front" flipper is actually on the front (not the side).
But to me in this situation the symmetry of the knife determines "sides" like the "presentation side" as they tend to call it.
It isn't the spine side and the edge side. the handle scales are on each side of the knife.
Now a house I suppose had 4 sides, so that spine side and edge side could be appropriate when considering it with 4 but then they become the front and back, at least on a certain plane.
So I guess my ingrained idea of the "front" of the knife comes from feeling like i use the front of a blade to slice, not the side.
It suppose it should be considered a tang flipper or something along those lines.
Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
We are on the same page here, as far as that pictures front and back...BornIn1500 wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 9:43 pmThis thread is a little mind-blowing. I really didn't think there was such a debate on what a front flipper is. To me, it's very simple.
If a Smock/Ikuchi is called a front flipper, than how would you make the distinction between those and a knife that you flip from the "front front"? :confused: Would you call it a front-front flipper?
It has been really interesting to me that anyone would see this from the perspective of TomAiello but that's part of what makes this forum so invaluable.
Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
I'm not a flippin kind of guy so it doesn't bother me at all. Just don't call it a back lock, that will get me pissed!!
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- MichaelScott
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Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
As I recall during the late medieval period in Europe, there were intense and heated discussions about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. Literally.
Overheard at the end of the ice age, “We’ve been having such unnatural weather.”
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Re: Does it bother anyone else...?
Because the flipper tab is in *front* of the pivot.