CTS-BD1N Where does it fit in?

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zuludelta
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Re: CTS-BD1N Where does it fit in?

#61

Post by zuludelta »

Not to further revive an old thread, but seeing as how people seem to be using this thread as an information resource, I thought to add some updated information regarding CTS-BD1N's characteristics relative to more well-known steels.

These notes are largely derived from the work of Dr. Larrin Thomas, but the interpretations and conjectures are mine, so any errors and inaccuracies should be attributed to me alone:

  • CTS-BD1N has very high corrosion resistance, significantly above that of VG-10, CPM-S30V, and CPM-S35VN, and only slightly below CPM-S110V. In practical terms, it is perhaps as corrosion-resistant as one can get in a folding knife steel before edging into LC200N/H-1 territory.
  • CTS-BD1N has a lower peak potential hardness compared to VG-10 due to its chemistry, but in my personal experience, this has negligible implications on practical wear resistance and edge holding in my Spyderco folders (perhaps due to Spyderco's heat treat of VG-10, which trades some hardness for better toughness).
  • CTS-BD1N can achieve higher toughness at the same hardness compared to VG-10 due to its chemistry, but again, this difference isn't something readily perceived, at least as far as the use I put my work folders through (and also perhaps due to Spyderco's heat treat of VG-10).
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Matus
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Re: CTS-BD1N Where does it fit in?

#62

Post by Matus »

Since this thread was revived rather recently, then I am going to post here instead of starting a new one.

I recently briefly owned (catch and release) a Para 3 in Cruwear. Kinda did not bond with it (handle) and let it go. It was most likely a mistake. But I just like the profile of the pattern and thought that I should maybe give the lightweight version of Para 3 a try. Just to get it in hand I ordered one in BD1N steel. I like it in hand, I like it a lot - and much better than the G10.

I know I should have kept the Cruwear, get the lightweight and swap blades, but I was not aware that that would have been possible at that time. Oh well. But I really like the look of the blue handle with the Spy27, so I started to consider that. However while doing my homework I found out that the BD1N seems to offer about the same edge retention as Spy27 on cardboard and a bit less on that pesky sisal rope. In total - it appears to be an excellent steel what makes the price jump to Spy27 hard to justify. Plus the smooth stonewash finish of the BD1N is one of the best looking finishes I have seen on ANY blade (save for a proper Japanese honyaki finished with natural stones and finger stones ... very different corner of the knife world).

So here I am asking myself the question I did not expect - should I maybe simply keep the BD1N as it appears to be such a great value? Is it worth trying to hunt down a Rex 45 or go the blade swap route - a solution that would cost me at least double as the BD1N? I must say - as crazy as it sounds - it is the black color that makes that decision unnecessarily hard (I am not a much of a fan of black color in most cases)
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Wartstein
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Re: CTS-BD1N Where does it fit in?

#63

Post by Wartstein »

Matus wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:10 pm
..... I found out that the BD1N seems to offer about the same edge retention as Spy27 on cardboard and a bit less on that pesky sisal rope. In total - it appears to be an excellent steel what makes the price jump to Spy27 hard to justify....

Not an expert, but according to Larrins charts (and he certainly is "THE" expert) the edge retention of BD1N is clearly below Spy27 and even below VG10....

That being said: I really like BD1N!!
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: CTS-BD1N Where does it fit in?

#64

Post by Wartstein »

Added to my post above: Here is Larrins edge retention chart (Spy27 not included, but BD1N, VG10 and S30V). Of course in "real life" things like heat treatment, hardness... will make differences too (here Larrins article viewtopic.php?t=86503)

Image
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: CTS-BD1N Where does it fit in?

#65

Post by Wartstein »

Matus wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:15 am
Wartstein wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:52 am
BD1N is great and for me sharpens to a very keen edge even easier than VG10.
In my use it seems to be not to bad in edge retention too.

But in Larrins about 10000 times more objective testing BD1N has less edge retention than even VG10 and so certainly below Spy27 (though of course edge retention is just one of many parameters concerning performance).
You make a very good point. I am certainly not ignoring Larrin's results. The relevant difference that one should not forget that Larrin tests steels with a certain HT, while most other testers test knives (with a certain HT). In theory, the Catra test should gave us some roughly (and in a relative way) comparable results to say 'feet of cardboard' real life tests, but the differences due to different HT will remain, since per se Spyderco will have different details of the HT (for the better or worse) than Larrin.

One can see this for example in how S30V performs - in Larrin's tests it is on par or better than Cruwear, M4, 4V, etc. while in the cutting tests with (mostly Spyderco knvies) S30V never manages to perform past these steels. So there are some systematic differences which I can only imagine are related to the fact that these two tests are simply different and also because the heat treatments of the testing subjects most likely differ.

Since I am interested in a certain knife (here Para 3 LW) and see it perform very close in BD1N and Spy27, I am inclined to keep the BD1N and save some cash.
You are right of course that the heat treat can make a significant difference, and indeed the BD1N Larrin tested is in the 60ies, the VG10 in the 61es, but S30 V is tested in the 59es, 61es and 64es, and even in the 59 hardness range it has significantly better edge retention than BD1 N in the 60 range (see Larrins chart in my post above) - also there you can see the increases in edge retention for several steels when hardness increases - if this is just roughly the same with BD1N, it would still at the very best reach VG10 edge retention if it were in the 61 hardness range like VG10 in the test (and not "just" in the 60 range).

And: There is a direct quote from Larrin from this post (viewtopic.php?t=86503#p1416623): "... BD1N only has ~0.90% carbon plus a little nitrogen, and doesn't have any vanadium. I don't know how it would be testing much above VG10 at equivalent hardness and edge geometry"

So if Spy27 is close to S30V, it should beat BD1N easily in edge retention.

Actually I trust Larrins test more than other "edge retention tester" on youtube - and so i believe that S30 V has better edge retention than Cruwear, M4, 4V, even if different hardnesses are calculated - this is exactly what the chart shows!

Anyway: I have to admit that I was totally surprised how long my BD1N Manix LW DID actually hold an edge! I even started a thread on this cause I could hardly believe it. Subjectively clearly better than VG10...
So I think that to a more or less degree with the youtube testers factors like different grinds angles, how coarse or fine an edge is, different levels of sharpness come into play.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Matus
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Re: CTS-BD1N Where does it fit in?

#66

Post by Matus »

As I said, the tests Larrin is doing and the knife tests available online are two different things. For many Spyderco blades the HRC values are known, but it would be going too far to assume that the same steel HTed by Larrin and Spyderco to the same HRC is going to have the same edge retention - in 2 different tests (and the blades being sharpened differently too). On top of that the medium being cut also changes the how the steels performs relative to each other - something that is also clearly visible in the tests done on cardboard and sisal rope.

To me as a user is of course more important a performance of a certain knife made in certain steel, than a performance of a certain steel made by a 3rd party (in this case Larrin).
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Re: CTS-BD1N Where does it fit in?

#67

Post by Wartstein »

Matus wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:21 am
As I said, the tests Larrin is doing and the knife tests available online are two different things. For many Spyderco blades the HRC values are known, but it would be going too far to assume that the same steel HTed by Larrin and Spyderco to the same HRC is going to have the same edge retention - in 2 different tests (and the blades being sharpened differently too). On top of that the medium being cut also changes the how the steels performs relative to each other - something that is also clearly visible in the tests done on cardboard and sisal rope.

To me as a user is of course more important a performance of a certain knife made in certain steel, than a performance of a certain steel made by a 3rd party (in this case Larrin).

Good points, Matus! :)

Let´s just agree on: BD1N actually is a great EDC and user steel, if every knife I have would feature this steel, I´d have nothing to complain about from a practical point of view! :)

Beste Grüsse rauf zu Dir nach Deutschland ;),

Gernot
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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