Im keeping my enduras. No to the police 4

[BigKenbo]

In this case don't make comparisons to US made knives and don't make steel comparisons. That is missing the point which is that for some unexplained reason Japanese G10 is super expensive.

It is simple, there has been a clear history of the Seki City knives that use G10 being very expensive while the frn knives made there have been much much more affordable. I cannot explain why but the pattern is undeniable. The Police4 should be no different.

The G10 Stretch is like $75 more than its frn counterpart. Would you buy a frn Police4 if it was $75 cheaper than the G10 version? I would. I predict that the frn Police will come in around $140 depending on steel choice.

Now that is interesting. I was not aware of that kind of price disparity in Seki knives. I wonder why the disparity is over twice as much in Seki than Golden. Yes i would snap up a 140 dollar frn P4 **** if it was 75 bucks less than the G10 it would actually be a touch less than my ZDP endura. Now i have some clarity on the issue. I am late to the Spyderco party, so all i was looking at was "if golden can do it or 35 bucks why cant Seki?" Now i get its a quirk with that supply line. I was unaware, and appreciate you filling in the background for me!

[BigKenbo]

I was excited initially too about P4 FRN.

OP’s post has me thinking with Enduras and Cara Caras I have, plus CS Broken Skull (longer blade similar to P4, thin & lightweight).
Will a P4 FRN at 140$ be good buy for me? :o

at 140 bucks a throw might even consider picking up two!

[carrot]

Late to the party but as much as I love the Endura in all its variations the Police 4 (and older Police SS) are really special. The Police 4 is the BIG lockback Military I've always wanted and although it is too big for me to carry as an EDC I really treasure it. The thin handle makes it carry comfortably, but it still feels great in the hands.

I agree that it is a very expensive leap from the Endura but in many ways it is not at all just an upsized Endura. The build quality is truly superb. I ended up buying one from the secondary market because the new prices were too high for me for a knife that wouldn't get daily pocket carry.

I expect to be buying the FRN version as well and appreciate the Spyderco team's efforts to keep the price affordable for the upcoming lightweight models.

[bearfacedkiller]

Happy to help. If you do some searching there have been a few threads discussing the issue.

I am a huge fan of the Police4. I actually have two of them and will likely buy as many variations of it as they make. Definitely in for a VG10, a K390 and a ZDP if all three come to fruition. I would also be all over a Super Blue variant. Oh yeah!

[BigKenbo]

Happy to help. If you do some searching there have been a few threads discussing the issue.

I am a huge fan of the Police4. I actually have two of them and will likely buy as many variations of it as they make. Definitely in for a VG10, a K390 and a ZDP if all three come to fruition. I would also be all over a Super Blue variant. Oh yeah!

Man i hear about the super blue, like i hear about sasquatch lol! Ihave heard of it but i am yet to actually SEE it! Heard it is superlative. Id pay 250 for a maxamet P4 and not bat an eye, although i know that will not happen. Perhaps the native chief will scratch that itch lol

[BigKenbo]

Late to the party but as much as I love the Endura in all its variations the Police 4 (and older Police SS) are really special. The Police 4 is the BIG lockback Military I've always wanted and although it is too big for me to carry as an EDC I really treasure it. The thin handle makes it carry comfortably, but it still feels great in the hands.

I agree that it is a very expensive leap from the Endura but in many ways it is not at all just an upsized Endura. The build quality is truly superb. I ended up buying one from the secondary market because the new prices were too high for me for a knife that wouldn't get daily pocket carry.

I expect to be buying the FRN version as well and appreciate the Spyderco team's efforts to keep the price affordable for the upcoming lightweight models.

Absolutely agree it isnt just an upsized endura. But still having trouble digesting that its almost double the price of my HAP40 endura. Ill wind up with an FRN version im sure. Still surpised its more expensive than the Golden made S110V Millie though.

[T-1000]

The upcoming P4 FRN will be the knife I have been wanting for years, a larger Endura 4. I dont care if its twice the price of a VG10 E4, the steel is better and its bigger. No brainer for me.

[Enactive]

I think Darby is correct here. We'll see though, and while I am definitely getting a Native Chief when available, I may also get a P4 LW depending on pricing.

In this case don't make comparisons to US made knives and don't make steel comparisons. That is missing the point which is that for some unexplained reason Japanese G10 is super expensive.

It is simple, there has been a clear history of the Seki City knives that use G10 being very expensive while the frn knives made there have been much much more affordable. I cannot explain why but the pattern is undeniable. The Police4 should be no different.

The G10 Stretch is like $75 more than its frn counterpart. Would you buy a frn Police4 if it was $75 cheaper than the G10 version? I would. I predict that the frn Police will come in around $140 depending on steel choice.

[BigKenbo]

The upcoming P4 FRN will be the knife I have been wanting for years, a larger Endura 4. I dont care if its twice the price of a VG10 E4, the steel is better and its bigger. No brainer for me.

Agree but be please be aware the E4s i have been referencing are in their own right, premium steel offerings beyond the VG10 version. If Bearfaced killer is correctt and the FRN version is around 140-150 ill be in for sure!

[TomAiello]

I find the P4 far better than the Endura, because I can choke up a lot more precisely with the 50/50 choil. Ergonomics vary by person, though, so everyone will have their own personal experience on that kind of thing.

[BigKenbo]

Thanks for the engagement everyone. I appreciate the opportunity very much. I have learned some things. Broadened my horizons, and am focused on an FRN version of the Police 4. Hopefully it will so beasty i have to have the G10 version as well!!! Be blessed everyone and thanks again.

[vivi]

Id pay 250 for a maxamet P4 and not bat an eye, although i know that will not happen.

That part doesn't make sense to me.

K390 and Maxamet are both "super steels." K390 is tougher, sharpens more easily and as far as I know resists corrosion better. Maxamet will hold an edge longer, but takes more time to sharpen, and is easier to make chip or rust.

Steels are not arranged in linear tiers of "bad, acceptable, good, better, best." They are all balancing acts, that excel at different things.

Is your ZDP Endura better than a VG10 Endura? Not for someone who values toughness and corrosion resistance more than edge holding.

Is Maxamet better than K390? Not if you value toughness and ease of sharpening more than edge holding.

Is maxamet better than bottom of the barrel 420hc? Not if you value corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening more than edge holding.

And, even if edge holding is the only thing you care about in a blade steel...K390 is one of the best steels Spyderco offers when it comes to edge holding.

You shouldn't write off a steel that holds an edge better than 98% of the steels Spyderco has offered in production folders, just because they make a few models in a steel that holds an edge a bit longer, while sacrificing other attributes.

Maxamet isn't "the best." There is no "the best." Which steel is optimal for a given role changes depending on context. Someone fishing in saltwater in 105F weather is going to value corrosion resistance. Someone working in a warehouse breaking down lots of cardboard will care more about edge holding. A casual knife buyer looking for an EDC for general purpose stuff will care more about price. Someone using their Spyderco fixed blade for bushcraft chores and batoning firewood will care more about toughness. Each of these people will have a different steel that to them is "the best."

[TomAiello]

Maxamet and K390 are both at the top end of my personal steel choices. In a larger blade, I prefer the toughness advantage of K390, but I think the choice between them comes down to the platform for me. For the P4, I'd rather have K390 than Maxamet, personally, and that's even though when all is said and done Maxamet is my personal all time favorite steel.

[BigKenbo]

Id pay 250 for a maxamet P4 and not bat an eye, although i know that will not happen.

That part doesn't make sense to me.

K390 and Maxamet are both "super steels." K390 is tougher, sharpens more easily and as far as I know resists corrosion better. Maxamet will hold an edge longer, but takes more time to sharpen, and is easier to make chip or rust.

Steels are not arranged in linear tiers of "bad, acceptable, good, better, best." They are all balancing acts, that excel at different things.

Is your ZDP Endura better than a VG10 Endura? Not for someone who values toughness and corrosion resistance more than edge holding.

Is Maxamet better than K390? Not if you value toughness and ease of sharpening more than edge holding.

Is maxamet better than bottom of the barrel 420hc? Not if you value corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening more than edge holding.

And, even if edge holding is the only thing you care about in a blade steel...K390 is one of the best steels Spyderco offers when it comes to edge holding.

You shouldn't write off a steel that holds an edge better than 98% of the steels Spyderco has offered in production folders, just because they make a few models in a steel that holds an edge a bit longer, while sacrificing other attributes.

Maxamet isn't "the best." There is no "the best." Which steel is optimal for a given role changes depending on context. Someone fishing in saltwater in 105F weather is going to value corrosion resistance. Someone working in a warehouse breaking down lots of cardboard will care more about edge holding. A casual knife buyer looking for an EDC for general purpose stuff will care more about price. Someone using their Spyderco fixed blade for bushcraft chores and batoning firewood will care more about toughness. Each of these people will have a different steel that to them is "the best."

I was not aware of calling anything the best. Different tools for different jobs. I only stated i would pay the premium for a maxamet P4. I was writing off the K390 P4 because if Seki is charging 75 bucks for G10 vs FRN and Golden charges 35 i dont like feeling like someone is ripping me off. And if the difference is 75 for G10 from Seki then guess what, there is some ripping off being done. Whats "best" for me isnt best for everyone. Im not so dense i needed that pointed out to me. What i want or am willing to put up with regarding pricing chicanery is my personal bailiwick. And yes the numbers i throw around are accurate. An N5 LW with no steel liners is 35 bucks less than the same S110V in the G10 version. So if Seki charges 75 for the difference, well guess what? Thats pure unadulterated bulldookie. If i have let my civility slip i apologize, but the numbers are not subjective to yours mine or anyone elses opinions.

[BigKenbo]

Maxamet and K390 are both at the top end of my personal steel choices. In a larger blade, I prefer the toughness advantage of K390, but I think the choice between them comes down to the platform for me. For the P4, I'd rather have K390 than Maxamet, personally, and that's even though when all is said and done Maxamet is my personal all time favorite steel.

Totally legit!!! I feel the same way about maxamet. I dont have any K390. And i dont disparage it. But its more expensive than a freakin Millie in S110V. I feel the price is off. Thats all.

[ferider]

Totally legit!!! I feel the same way about maxamet. I dont have any K390. And i dont disparage it. But its more expensive than a freakin Millie in S110V. I feel the price is off. Thats all.

Once you've broken a Maxamet blade like I have, you might prefer K390 over it (as I do). And the s110v Millie is a couple of dollars more expensive than the P4, at least at Walmart:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Military-Mod ... e/53097145

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Police-Model ... /352664416

Anyways, your knives and choice, etc. I totally understand if you think it isn't worth it. I really love the P4 though and I find it truly unique in the ~$200 price bracket.

Roland.

[BigKenbo]

Totally legit!!! I feel the same way about maxamet. I dont have any K390. And i dont disparage it. But its more expensive than a freakin Millie in S110V. I feel the price is off. Thats all.

Once you've broken a Maxamet blade like I have, you might prefer K390 over it (as I do). And the s110v Millie is a couple of dollars more expensive than the P4, at least at Walmart:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Military-Mod ... e/53097145

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Police-Model ... /352664416

Anyways, your knives and choice, etc. I totally understand if you think it isn't worth it. I really love the P4 though and I find it truly unique in the ~$200 price bracket.

Roland.

Id be really bummed to break a maxamet blade no doubt. Like i was saying earlier though, its that i feel (and im trying to use numbers from the same sites here) if Golden says the leap from linerless frn to full liners and G10 is 35 bucks, but as Darby stated earlier, there can be as much as a 75 dollar difference in the Seki line. That smells like artificially inflated pricing to me. And i wont support that. I dont buy Harleys for the same reasons. Dont try and sell me a 20,000 bike for 30 grand. It isnt i dont think the P4 is stellar. Or that K390 sucks. Love to have it. But in my mind the pricing is off.

[vivi]

Id pay 250 for a maxamet P4 and not bat an eye, although i know that will not happen.

That part doesn't make sense to me.

K390 and Maxamet are both "super steels." K390 is tougher, sharpens more easily and as far as I know resists corrosion better. Maxamet will hold an edge longer, but takes more time to sharpen, and is easier to make chip or rust.

Steels are not arranged in linear tiers of "bad, acceptable, good, better, best." They are all balancing acts, that excel at different things.

Is your ZDP Endura better than a VG10 Endura? Not for someone who values toughness and corrosion resistance more than edge holding.

Is Maxamet better than K390? Not if you value toughness and ease of sharpening more than edge holding.

Is maxamet better than bottom of the barrel 420hc? Not if you value corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening more than edge holding.

And, even if edge holding is the only thing you care about in a blade steel...K390 is one of the best steels Spyderco offers when it comes to edge holding.

You shouldn't write off a steel that holds an edge better than 98% of the steels Spyderco has offered in production folders, just because they make a few models in a steel that holds an edge a bit longer, while sacrificing other attributes.

Maxamet isn't "the best." There is no "the best." Which steel is optimal for a given role changes depending on context. Someone fishing in saltwater in 105F weather is going to value corrosion resistance. Someone working in a warehouse breaking down lots of cardboard will care more about edge holding. A casual knife buyer looking for an EDC for general purpose stuff will care more about price. Someone using their Spyderco fixed blade for bushcraft chores and batoning firewood will care more about toughness. Each of these people will have a different steel that to them is "the best."

I was not aware of calling anything the best. Different tools for different jobs. I only stated i would pay the premium for a maxamet P4. I was writing off the K390 P4 because if Seki is charging 75 bucks for G10 vs FRN and Golden charges 35 i dont like feeling like someone is ripping me off. And if the difference is 75 for G10 from Seki then guess what, there is some ripping off being done. Whats "best" for me isnt best for everyone. Im not so dense i needed that pointed out to me. What i want or am willing to put up with regarding pricing chicanery is my personal bailiwick. And yes the numbers i throw around are accurate. An N5 LW with no steel liners is 35 bucks less than the same S110V in the G10 version. So if Seki charges 75 for the difference, well guess what? Thats pure unadulterated bulldookie. If i have let my civility slip i apologize, but the numbers are not subjective to yours mine or anyone elses opinions.

The Native and Police are very different in size. Long, thin blades of highly wear resistant steel like the Police have are more difficult to make, and in a larger model there is simply more raw material.

For the price of your Endura, you could have gotten five or six Cara Cara 2's.

[weeping minora]

I think there is a misunderstanding between the G-10 being the sole issue for the complete "$75" upcharge, because those are some THIN G-10 slabs.

Comparing the treatment of ZDP-189 and HAP40 to K390 is the biggest factor for the price increase, IMO. If you look at the hardness that Seki (and Moki) produces for ZDP and HAP40, they are quite a bit off of their "optimum potential" hardness rating, which would undoubtedly fetch a higher premium in price for the added complexity in HT if they actually pushed these steels. Case in point; look at the offerings of kitchen knives offered in these steels at optimal hardness. AFAIK, Seki is pushing K390 at a much more optimal hardness, which will maximize the properties of the steel and is undoubtedly a much more complex HT. Then you have the added cost for importing the steel, from EU to the US and then to Japan. On top of that, the Japanese producers for Spyderco have been very stringently adverse to using "outside" steels to work with and here they are working with one of the top-toted steels in the world as far as cutlery is concerned, as the second steel they've offered in doing so outside of S30V. The blade size is a huge factor as well as the lack of any cladded material jacketing the blade, which many believe brings the price of HAP40 down by an amount worth the noted mentioning. The raw materials and complexity to bring the best out within this platform in the blade alone are probably worth the entire upcharge; then you have the G-10 which has notoriety for being more expensive anyway from these producers.

I agree with all others here in saying that the judgement of how Golden chooses to price their FRCP-to-G-10 models isn't the way to look at this issue of unwarranted upcharge. Just my .02

[BigKenbo]

I think there is a misunderstanding between the G-10 being the sole issue for the complete "$75" upcharge, because those are some THIN G-10 slabs.

Comparing the treatment of ZDP-189 and HAP40 to K390 is the biggest factor for the price increase, IMO. If you look at the hardness that Seki (and Moki) produces for ZDP and HAP40, they are quite a bit off of their "optimum potential" hardness rating, which would undoubtedly fetch a higher premium in price for the added complexity in HT if they actually pushed these steels. Case in point; look at the offerings of kitchen knives offered in these steels at optimal hardness. AFAIK, Seki is pushing K390 at a much more optimal hardness, which will maximize the properties of the steel and is undoubtedly a much more complex HT. Then you have the added cost for importing the steel, from EU to the US and then to Japan. On top of that, the Japanese producers for Spyderco have been very stringently adverse to using "outside" steels to work with and here they are working with one of the top-toted steels in the world as far as cutlery is concerned, as the second steel they've offered in doing so outside of S30V. The blade size is a huge factor as well as the lack of any cladded material jacketing the blade, which many believe brings the price of HAP40 down by an amount worth the noted mentioning. The raw materials and complexity to bring the best out within this platform in the blade alone are probably worth the entire upcharge; then you have the G-10 which has notoriety for being more expensive anyway from these producers.

I agree with all others here in saying that the judgement of how Golden chooses to price their FRCP-to-G-10 models isn't the way to look at this issue of unwarranted upcharge. Just my .02

Arent they all Spyderco? We arent talking about Chevy vs Toyota here right? Why would we not be able to look at how Golden Spyderco prices, and then be able to expect consistency throughout the Spyderco lineup? I believe it is unwarranted upcharge. And from what i have learned today it is, and has been, an ongoing situation. People who love the P4 are affronted by my position. Not my intention, but i guess everyone should just be ok with arbitrary capricious and possibly predatory pricing strategy? Im a jerk. I admit it. But this jerk just doesnt deal well with people trying to gouge money from me or people i care about.