Do Super Steel Alloys End Carbon Steel's Reign for Knives or not?

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I would welcome all of your views and opinions on this. In the last 20 or so years we have seen an increasing amount of "super steel" alloys such as stainless alloys made available for knife blades. But, we have also seen new forms of tool steel, including carbon rich tool steel such as M4. Do you think that over time the super stainless alloys have and will make carbon steel for knives, both traditional and new forms, obsolete, or not?

I notice that even here are the forum there are some very experienced knife users who do use carbon steel. I personally do not have anything against carbon steel except for one feature: Its prone to rust. I do not like rust or corrosion. That is why, while I respect carbon steel alloys, I am a stainless person. I prefer stainless and stain-resistant and stain-proof steel.

[Catamount123]

I don't like rust either. I doubt there are many who do (patina, on the other hand...). I do find that that are some advantages to non-stainless steels that I want to explore. EDCi Solution enables me to do this with less concern.

[Evil D]

Well they haven't yet. I don't think this is ever a definitive yes or no, it depends more on the person and their uses. Steels like 1095 will be here until the end of time.

[bearfacedkiller]

Only in the premium knife market which is small. Quality folders will mostly use premium materials but even quality fixed blades will stil sometimes use simple steels. There are lots of nice fixed blades using O1 and A2. BHK, LT Wright, Bark River and Fiddleback Forge for example.

Companies like F. Dick, Dexter Russell, Victorinox, Kabar, Ontario, Esee, Tops, Buck and Case will keep using what they are using and they are all large volume knife companies. The Scandinavian makers all seem quite happy with 12c27 and 1095.

We live in a consumer culture where price is the driving force behind most people's purchasing decisions. Also, sharpening is a lost art and the average Joe has no interest in knives that are a challenge to sharpen at all. They want something they can rip through some gizmo and get passably sharp. For those two reasons simpler steels are here to stay in my opinion.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Well they haven't yet. I don't think this is ever a definitive yes or no, it depends more on the person and their uses. Steels like 1095 will be here until the end of time.

Agree 100 percent. While I personally do not like it because of the rust issue (yes, I know there are oils and lubricants and such things), 1095 appears, at least to be, to be a "bedrock foundational knife blade material" that has withstood the test of time and has so many uses and applications. Very good point David.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Only in the premium knife market which is small. Quality folders will mostly use premium materials but even quality fixed blades will stil sometimes use simple steels. There are lots of nice fixed blades using O1 and A2. BHK, LT Wright, Bark River and Fiddleback Forge for example.

Companies like F. Dick, Dexter Russell, Victorinox, Kabar, Ontario, Esee, Tops, Buck and Case will keep using what they are using and they are all large volume knife companies. The Scandinavian makers all seem quite happy with 12c27 and 1095.

We live in a consumer culture where price is the driving force behind most people's purchasing decisions. Also, sharpening is a lost art and the average Joe has no interest in knives that are a challenge to sharpen at all. They want something they can rip through some gizmo and get passably sharp. For those two reasons simpler steels are here to stay in my opinion.

Also a very good point, yes. Infact, regarding 12C27 from Sandvik, I notice that even with newer versions of their stainless, that particular ones seems to be a "1095 of stainless steel" if you get the point. It has been proven to be reasonably easy to maintain and has good edge holding as well as corrosion-resistant properties.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I don't like rust either. I doubt there are many who do (patina, on the other hand...). I do find that that are some advantages to non-stainless steels that I want to explore. EDCi Solution enables me to do this with less concern.

Even though stainless is stain-resistant and (unless you use H1 or LC200N) will rust under certain conditions, would you recommend a person using EDCi Solution on a stainless blade, if they are concerned about rust? Would it make the blade that much more rust resistant, or, don't bother using it on the already-stain resistant blade?

[TomAiello]

Corrosion resistance is a spectrum--not a binary characteristic.

One "stainless" super steel may not be quite as "stainless" as another. Compare corrosion/stain resistance of LC200N and S90V, for example, and you'll find that the LC has greatly superior stain resistance.

I don't think that stainlessess is the top characteristic for most serious knife people, although I do think it's a top characteristic for mass market knives (because rust is visible and creates a PR problem, even when it doesn't effect function).

I think that we'll continue to see new high end "super" steels with a range of corrosion resistance being brought out for the "afi" market, with a trailing and much slower improvement in the stainless used in the mass market production knives (Kershaw changing over from 12c27 to 14c28n a few years back, for example).

I find that the more I learn about knives, the less important corrosion resistance is to me for some applications. I've just become better at distinguishing when it will or will not be important, and selecting an appropriate tool for each role.

[blues]

My buddy Jerry Halfrich, a custom knife maker, custom rifle barrel maker, and hunting guide often tells me why he likes the balanced properties of a steel like CPM 154, which is what he builds the bulk of his knives with.

On some of his hunting trips there are experienced hunters that complain that M4 was both too sharp and too hard to sharpen in the field. (They actually ripped through some of the animals they were processing because they weren't used to truly sharp knives.)

Others didn't like staining from blood or from a knife that was left sitting out in inclement conditions before being maintained.

Everything is a matter of balance...and there is no free lunch. The high end stainless steels are excellent as are the powdered metal tool steels and the basic carbon steels. Just depends on where you are willing to make your allowances and sacrifices.

[emanuel]

Corrosion resistance is a spectrum--not a binary characteristic.

One "stainless" super steel may not be quite as "stainless" as another. Compare corrosion/stain resistance of LC200N and S90V, for example, and you'll find that the LC has greatly superior stain resistance.

But properly heat treated s90v, particularly s110v, is in practice as rust proof as LC200N against salt water. Against other more corrosive substances (aqua regia), there is a difference indeed, but its very little as graphs by Larrin from knifesteelnerds show.

[Catamount123]

I don't like rust either. I doubt there are many who do (patina, on the other hand...). I do find that that are some advantages to non-stainless steels that I want to explore. EDCi Solution enables me to do this with less concern.

Even though stainless is stain-resistant and (unless you use H1 or LC200N) will rust under certain conditions, would you recommend a person using EDCi Solution on a stainless blade, if they are concerned about rust? Would it make the blade that much more rust resistant, or, don't bother using it on the already-stain resistant blade?

I wouldn't bother with H-1 or LC200N, but for stainless steels that will rust (VG-10, S30V, CTS-XHP etc.), I think it adds a little more protection. It's easy to apply, food-safe, and inexpensive, so there's not much downside.

[The Deacon]

Not everyone wants what others perceive to be "the latest and greatest". Cartridge firearms have been around for over 150 years and smokeless powder for over 100, but black powder is still in use as are flintlock and percussion guns. Some folks are still taking pictures on film, and at least a few car companies still offer one or more models with standard transmissions. Carbon steel's "reign" as the knife steel of choice for most may have ended decades ago, but I don't see it ever going away completely.

[Deadboxhero]

Do Segways end legs reign for walking or not :D

[blues]

Do Segways end legs reign for walking or not :D

So that's how you roll...

[dj moonbat]

Even if future stainless steels surpass current low-chromium steels, they will not surpass future low-chromium steels for users who discount corrosion resistance. It's always going to be easier to make high-performing steels if you don't have to make them resist rust.

[TomAiello]

Do Segways end legs reign for walking or not :D

So that's how you roll...

I believe there's a weird Al song about that...with an accompanying video:

https://youtu.be/N9qYF9DZPdw

Skip to 1:15 for the Segway clip.

[TomAiello]

Corrosion resistance is a spectrum--not a binary characteristic.

One "stainless" super steel may not be quite as "stainless" as another. Compare corrosion/stain resistance of LC200N and S90V, for example, and you'll find that the LC has greatly superior stain resistance.

But properly heat treated s90v, particularly s110v, is in practice as rust proof as LC200N against salt water. Against other more corrosive substances (aqua regia), there is a difference indeed, but its very little as graphs by Larrin from knifesteelnerds show.

That actually hasn't been my experience.

I've had noticeable patina on s90v, but never on s110v (or LC200N).

I don't think that s90v and s110v are as similar as a lot of people think. I've found s90v to be much tougher, and s110v to be more stain resistant and more resistant to abrasive wear (longer edge holding). Maybe it's the heat treat or platform (Sprig, Southfork, UKPK and Manix 2 are the ones I'm mostly basing this on) though.

I haven't done any salt water testing, but given my experience (n a desert environment) I don't think that s90v is going to hold up nearly as well as LC200N against salt water exposure.

[blues]

Do Segways end legs reign for walking or not :D

So that's how you roll...

I believe there's a weird Al song about that...with an accompanying video:

https://youtu.be/N9qYF9DZPdw

Skip to 1:15 for the Segway clip.

Good stuff, Tom. Weird Al for the win.

[BigKenbo]

I am going to say "NO." There has long been a market for stainless and carbon. There will continue to be, because there are traditionalists. I dont WANT a Case sodbuster in S110V. Different tools for different uses, and some say the finest edge can only be achieved using a carbon steel. (At least the chef's knives selection would indicate aome do.) I took the super steel plunge because i wanted some different tools, or attributes. I believe the market will still exist for both. As they are truly different markets.

[Bloke]

Corrosion resistance is a spectrum--not a binary characteristic.

One "stainless" super steel may not be quite as "stainless" as another. Compare corrosion/stain resistance of LC200N and S90V, for example, and you'll find that the LC has greatly superior stain resistance.

But properly heat treated s90v, particularly s110v, is in practice as rust proof as LC200N against salt water. Against other more corrosive substances (aqua regia), there is a difference indeed, but its very little as graphs by Larrin from knifesteelnerds show.

My Sprig after brain spiking a large Dusky Flathead.

The knife was sloshed in saltwater, shaken to remove excess water and put back in the sheath, thrown in my fishing bag on a hot day and stayed there for about three hours.

This is how it looked after I rubbed off the bulk of the staining/onset of corrosion with my thumb.

This does not detract from the knife in anyway whatsoever nor am I knocking S90V in any way. It’s certainly a favourite, I wouldn’t be without it and it’s filleted many fish since. I just don’t wash it in saltwater anymore.

Quality of photos is poor but ... you get my gist.