Do Super Steel Alloys End Carbon Steel's Reign for Knives or not?

[vivi]

I like them for pocket knives, but I prefer the simple carbon steels for fixed blade. I'd rather have a fixed blade in A2 than S110V.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Could CPM 3V be made rust-proof, while retaining its other properties? That would be some super steel, right?

[TomAiello]

Could CPM 3V be made rust-proof, while retaining its other properties? That would be some super steel, right?

Sleipner has really impressed me as a very tough steel with good corrosion resistance. It's not stainless, but it seems more stain resistant than 3v to me, and about equal in toughness. Its hard to say for sure, of course, because all the Sleipner I have is in convex grinds, which give a better "toughness" just through geometry.

[TomAiello]

I like them for pocket knives, but I prefer the simple carbon steels for fixed blade. I'd rather have a fixed blade in A2 than S110V.

S110v wouldn't be a very good choice in a fixed blade. It's too brittle in my experience, and much better suited to small knives. It's pretty nice for EDC folders, for sure. But s90v has been much better for me in harder uses.

I'd take A2 over s110v in a fixed blade, too. But I'd rather have the fixed blade in CruWear, 3v or Sleipner than either of those.

I guess maybe there are "super" steels in both the "stainless" and "non-stainless" categories. Which brings us right back to picking the right blade material (and design) for the intended use.

[Baron Mind]

I think blade steel still has a lot of room to grow and evolve. I think the recent push for super steels has been a great thing, but I think we're still figuring out what the optimal blade steel, or blade steel characteristics might be. Keep in mind very steels were actually developed for knives. If it ever becomes profitable or realistic for steel companies to start developing steels specifically for knives, their could be some very interesting possibilities.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I think blade steel still has a lot of room to grow and evolve. I think the recent push for super steels has been a great thing, but I think we're still figuring out what the optimal blade steel, or blade steel characteristics might be. Keep in mind very steels were actually developed for knives. If it ever becomes profitable or realistic for steel companies to start developing steels specifically for knives, their could be some very interesting possibilities.

This is very interesting and thought-provoking. Are you saying that when steel companies produce various alloys of steel, their main focus is on other areas, and knife-makers (both factory and handmakers) tend to adapt the newly-developed alloys to their particular needs, rather than steel companies engineering new alloys specifically for knives?

[emanuel]

My Sprig after brain spiking a large Dusky Flathead.

The knife was sloshed in saltwater, shaken to remove excess water and put back in the sheath, thrown in my fishing bag on a hot day and stayed there for about three hours.

This is how it looked after I rubbed off the bulk of the staining/onset of corrosion with my thumb.

This does not detract from the knife in anyway whatsoever nor am I knocking S90V in any way. It’s certainly a favourite, I wouldn’t be without it and it’s filleted many fish since. I just don’t wash it in saltwater anymore.

Quality of photos is poor but ... you get my gist.

That actually hasn't been my experience.

I've had noticeable patina on s90v, but never on s110v (or LC200N).

Oh I have no doubt about it Bloke and Tom, that's why I said properly heat treated (I probably should have said optimally, since I have no doubt Spyderco did a proper job with it for its intended uses and customer base). Having 14% chromium and so much carbon, the HT being just a BIT off and get some of that chromium bonded in carbides, it significantly decreases corrosion resistance. I have a Southfork, we have some old roman-era salt mine pits full of brine that I go for a bath in the summer. Mind you, this is 20%+ salt by mass water, way more than the 3% from sea water. Besides one spot on the exposed tang on the handle, didn't have issue with rust. This during multiple days of being exposed to my salty-wet hands and water dipped, and only being rinsed when we packed to leave 8-10 hours later. I also have a s110v knife heat treated by Luong, that didn't have any rust or discoloration whatsoever, which should be expected due to higher chromium and molybdenum content.

You get enough free chromium in, you can have any steel rust proof. That's the reason why s110v is more rust resistant than m390 if both optimally heat treated, even though it only has 15% Cr vs 20% in m390, there are other elements that combine with the carbon instead of the chromium, or elements that reinforce the effect of the chromium (molybdenum). LC200N isn't rust proof because of the nitrogen or anything mind-blowing in its design, its rust proof because of the low carbon that lets more free chromium into solution, and replacing it with nitrogen which doesn't fancy as much going on a date with the chromium. Its also physically impossible to give it a bad heat treat corrosion resistance wise. Can't wait

[Bloke]

Oh I have no doubt ...

Wish I had a solid understanding of metallurgy. :) :o

[emanuel]

Here's something interesting taken from an article written by Larrin that I was mentioning a few posts back.



LC200N is called Cronidur 30 in that table btw. Cr and Mo columns show in-solution percentage of those elements. Last 3 columns on the right show resistance of oxidation/pitting against 2 substances (acetic acid and aqua regia - higher number is better resistance). I don't know how much those values translate to real life salt water oxidation resistance, but it's some interesting data, particularly the pitting resistance.

[David R]

Only in the premium knife market which is small. Quality folders will mostly use premium materials but even quality fixed blades will stil sometimes use simple steels. There are lots of nice fixed blades using O1 and A2. BHK, LT Wright, Bark River and Fiddleback Forge for example.

Companies like F. Dick, Dexter Russell, Victorinox, Kabar, Ontario, Esee, Tops, Buck and Case will keep using what they are using and they are all large volume knife companies. The Scandinavian makers all seem quite happy with 12c27 and 1095.

We live in a consumer culture where price is the driving force behind most people's purchasing decisions. Also, sharpening is a lost art and the average Joe has no interest in knives that are a challenge to sharpen at all. They want something they can rip through some gizmo and get passably sharp. For those two reasons simpler steels are here to stay in my opinion.

Completely agree. Most of my friends are excellent cooks. They all have German knives and use a metal steel to "sharpen" their knives. They really have no idea what sharp is. We perhaps tend to think we're not that far out there because we live in this world. We're way outside the norm. I'm guessing people who can sharpen on a stone are 0.5% of the population of knife users at most.

When the hold a Japanese kitchen knife they think it feels too light and looks unfinished without a bolster and a heel that runs down to the edge. I wouldn't want to cut with those dull, heavy knives, but they still make good food.

[weeping minora]

Only in the premium knife market which is small. Quality folders will mostly use premium materials but even quality fixed blades will stil sometimes use simple steels. There are lots of nice fixed blades using O1 and A2. BHK, LT Wright, Bark River and Fiddleback Forge for example.

Companies like F. Dick, Dexter Russell, Victorinox, Kabar, Ontario, Esee, Tops, Buck and Case will keep using what they are using and they are all large volume knife companies. The Scandinavian makers all seem quite happy with 12c27 and 1095.

We live in a consumer culture where price is the driving force behind most people's purchasing decisions. Also, sharpening is a lost art and the average Joe has no interest in knives that are a challenge to sharpen at all. They want something they can rip through some gizmo and get passably sharp. For those two reasons simpler steels are here to stay in my opinion.

Completely agree. Most of my friends are excellent cooks. They all have German knives and use a metal steel to "sharpen" their knives. They really have no idea what sharp is. We perhaps tend to think we're not that far out there because we live in this world. We're way outside the norm. I'm guessing people who can sharpen on a stone are 0.5% of the population of knife users at most.

When the hold a Japanese kitchen knife they think it feels too light and looks unfinished without a bolster and a heel that runs down to the edge. I wouldn't want to cut with those dull, heavy knives, but they still make good food.

Disagree with the regard of someone using heavy German knives being synonymous to the user not knowing what a sharp knife is. I work with meat; own and use these so called "dull" knives, which I can get screaming sharp with very little effort and time. Their intended purpose is to be used (and can be used hard) without the worry of catastrophic edge damage throughout your work day, that a few minutes with very basic maintenance tools can attune for a very sharp edge. "Sharpening" these knives on a steel is known as honing the edge, which differs as it doesn't remove steel, but rather realigns a rolled edge. Hence why the steel they use is quite soft comparative to super steels. Even with this added capability, these knives should still be properly sharpened regularly. Not to mention the excellent resistance to corrosion these caliber of steels possess, which can affect your edge greatly if you use carbon steels for certain tasks. Each steel has their caveat and I highly doubt anyone has the time in the middle of their prep day to have to bust out a progression of stones because their R2/HAP40/ZDP-189/etc. knife just lost its edge after being neglected a touch-up in time, or suffered a catastrophic failure being pushed beyond its limit.

Touching on the consumer culture point, these cheaper knives also serve as an added protection against possible thievery, neglect, abuse, or accidental damage. For a mere $15-50, you can have a brand new dull German knife :D. That beats having to pony-up a couple hundred to start because some Jacka-- just used your Sukenari to unclog the drain :eek: :mad:

[David R]

Didn't mean to imply that anybody using a German knife doesn't know what sharp is. I was talking about my circle of friends who I think are representative of most home cooks when it comes to sharpening and understanding sharpness. I have some German knives as well and get mine sharp. They just don't hold an edge well.

[bearfacedkiller]

Do one ton 4WD diesel pickups make 2WD half ton pickups obsolete? Did the Z06 Corvette make the Honda Civic obsolete?

High performance is great but economics and practicality have their place and in many cases they trump pure performance.

[BigKenbo]

Do one ton 4WD diesel pickups make 2WD half ton pickups obsolete? Did the Z06 Corvette make the Honda Civic obsolete?

High performance is great but economics and practicality have their place and in many cases they trump pure performance.

What you said!

[BigKenbo]

I like them for pocket knives, but I prefer the simple carbon steels for fixed blade. I'd rather have a fixed blade in A2 than S110V.

I LOVE my A2 fixed blades. Wouldnt trade the 6.5" swell handle for any other knife. Convex edge with a linen micarta handle. And not a spot of discoloration anywhere after 10 years. And totally agree with you if i wasnt clear!

[Larrin]

The high chromium in solution required by stainless steels places major restrictions on alloy design. It is difficult to match some non-stainless tool steels depending on the properties that you are looking for. Some classes/categories are easier than others. Vanadis 4 Extra can reach 66+ Rc, has comparable edge retention to S35VN, while being over twice as tough as Vanax. It would be difficult to put all of those properties into a stainless steel.