Respect Bowie short feedback

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Mad Mac
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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Mad Mac » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:17 am

Wouldn't that be a ricasso?

"A ricasso is an unsharpened length of blade just above the guard or handle on a knife, dagger, sword, or bayonet... ...The basic function was to allow the wielder to place their index finger above the crossguard, which potentially allowed for greater grip strength and torque... "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricasso
1990: Endura SE, Delica PE, Mariner, Police. 2014: ClipiTool Bottle Opener. 2015: Kitchen Knife PE, Tenacious CE, Stretch PE, Moran Drop Point, Kiwi, two Byrd Cara Caras, Schempp Bowie, Native 5 Forum Knife, Sharpmaker, Police SE, Small SpyderPac, Ultra-Fine Stones, Tenacious SE, 4" Paring Knife, 2" Paring Knife, Starmate. 2016: The Spyderco Story, The Tactical Folding Knife, USN Ladybug H-1 Hawkbill SE, Black BaliYo, Yellow H-1 Salt Dragonfly 2 SE, Ulize, Pink Native 5 PE, Renegade C23PS and C23P, Gayle Bradley 2, Double Bevel, Gayle Bradley Air, Cricket Blue Nishjin, Centofante Memory, K2, two Large Lum Pink G10, Rubicon. 2017: Battlestation, Orange Positron, Gray Baliyo, Native 5 CE, Tenacious CE. 2018: EuroEdge, ClipiTool Standard, 2019 Calendar Contest Rhino CF PLN.
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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Wartstein » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:25 am

Mad Mac wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:17 am
Wouldn't that be a ricasso?

"A ricasso is an unsharpened length of blade just above the guard or handle on a knife, dagger, sword, or bayonet... ...The basic function was to allow the wielder to place their index finger above the crossguard, which potentially allowed for greater grip strength and torque... "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricasso
Good point! But maybe it's like " Every choil is also a Ricasso, but not every Ricasso is a choil"?? I don't know..
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby MichaelScott » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:41 am

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/choil

Definition of choil in English:
choil
NOUN

The end of a knife's cutting edge which is nearer to the handle.


So, it seems a choil is not a ricasso, and a ricasso is not a choil.
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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Wartstein » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:43 am

MichaelScott wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:41 am
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/choil

Definition of choil in English:
choil
NOUN

The end of a knife's cutting edge which is nearer to the handle.


So, it seems a choil is not a ricasso, and a ricasso is not a choil.
Interesting!! But going by that definition literally EVERY knife has a choil, right ?!
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Davidzhs » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:19 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:51 pm
sal wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:45 pm
Hi Warstein,

The finger choils on our folders are there to permit getting close to the edge for fine work. On the Respect, the "finger choil" is there so one an get a good grasp on the knife when chopping. It's a large heavy knife and you woould not want to accidentally "throw" it. I don't know that I would call it a "finger choil". There might be a name for it, but i don't know what it is. Where's Brian Huegel when we need him?

sal
Davidzhs wrote:
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:41 am
Davidzhs wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:47 am
When i place my finger in the choil, the handguard does not disturb at all, if i place my finger in the choil the knife glides automaticly in its right position. Hope that helps, or if you want i can make some pictures and post them.

Best regards
David
Marulaghost wrote:
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:41 am
Davidzhs wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:47 am

David

Knifecenter has a YouTube video of the Bowie and he discussed and displayed the different group positions. That being said I'm not so sure how much use the presenter bag out the knife through

Sal, David, Marulaghost,

thanks for your replies!

@ Sal: To create a choil in order to make chopping easier and safer is a very interesting and usefull approach! On my largest fixed blade (still a bit smaller and lighter than the Respect), I have a long lanyard wrapped around my hand when chopping. That perfectly prevents accidently "throwing" the knife, but the long lanyard can get annoying while doing other tasks or even when carrying the knife. So your approach is a really (for me) new and usefull one! Only drawback I could possibly see; When chopping with most efficency, one normally wants to hold the knife on the very rear of the handle to create more impact. That´s obviously not possible when the index finger is in that "choil". But then, the Respect is heavy enough to be still a good chopper even in that particular grip I am sure.

@ Marulaghost: Thanks a lot, I watched the vid just now. The guy there states, that the choils primary purpose would be, to make it easier pulling out the knife after stabbing something and the blade gets stuck in there. Probably a scenario, that will not occcur to often, but IF, beeing able to pull back the knife while choked up and pushing against the front side of the guard, sure is a good thing.

@ David: Don´t want to bother you in any way, but if you find the time to post a pic how it looks like when you`re choked up on the knife, that would be very kind of you. If not, no problem though!
Still can´t really figure how that massive guard would NOT get in the way to some extent when choking up.
I want to emphasize here: I think it is great, that the knife HAS this kind of guard. Would not be a bowie if it didn´t!

So in conclusion: That "choil" really seems to be a multipurpose feature: Enhances chopping ability, makes it easyier to pull the knife out of material... AND can also act like a good old finger choil... ;)

Dont worry warstein, thats why we participate in a forum :) i took some pictures with different grips, hope i can help you with them. And again thanks everyone for the warm welcome
Best regards,
David

https://m.imgur.com/a/3oC0TzX

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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby MichaelScott » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:58 pm

It would seem so.
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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby N. Brian Huegel » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:22 pm

The term 'choil' is the correct term. A choil is the unsharpened section of the blade, perpendicular to the ricasso, between the blade grind/cutting edge and the guard, bolster, or handle.

The term 'finger choil’ is the name Sal coined to describe the part of a folding knife that integrates the blade's choil and the handle. This singular term is used to describe the usually semi-circular, concave cutout that can also be used by definition on a fixed blade knife without a guard. It should not, however, be confused with a finger groove/s which is also generally a semi-circular, concave cutout, but restricted to the handle and does not extend to the blade.

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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Wartstein » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:00 am

Davidzhs wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:19 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:51 pm
sal wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:45 pm




@ David: Don´t want to bother you in any way, but if you find the time to post a pic how it looks like when you`re choked up on the knife, that would be very kind of you. If not, no problem though!
Still can´t really figure how that massive guard would NOT get in the way to some extent when choking up.
I want to emphasize here: I think it is great, that the knife HAS this kind of guard. Would not be a bowie if it didn´t!

So in conclusion: That "choil" really seems to be a multipurpose feature: Enhances chopping ability, makes it easyier to pull the knife out of material... AND can also act like a good old finger choil... ;)

Dont worry warstein, thats why we participate in a forum :) i took some pictures with different grips, hope i can help you with them. And again thanks everyone for the warm welcome
Best regards,
David

https://m.imgur.com/a/3oC0TzX
Hi David,

thank you very much for taking and posting the pictures! Though you obviously can´t place your hand as far forward as it would be the case without any guard on the upper part of the handle, still the guard is much less in the way than I would have guessed. And using the "Ricasso" as a finger choil looks just fine.
Man, now there is no more doubt left for me: If I ever purchase a bowie it will be the Respect, 100 %. For me and for how I use knives, in a blade that big a usable finger choil that allows you to get closer to the edge and balance the knife better for finer tasks is a must have. The Respect obviously offers that, though it´s not the primary purpose of that "choil" as Sal pointed out. Great design,

What Sal pointed out, was that the main purpose of the "choil" was to get a better grasp on the knife when chopping - that obviously works by putting your index finger in front of the guard. I know, that you won´t actually chop something with your new Respect, but still: How does a chopping motion feel in that kind of grip? Is there enough heft in the blade or do you wish to choke back to the end of the handle as one normally does to achieve maximum impact when chopping?

Thanks again for the pics!
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Davidzhs » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:58 am

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:00 am
Davidzhs wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:19 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:51 pm
sal wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:45 pm




@ David: Don´t want to bother you in any way, but if you find the time to post a pic how it looks like when you`re choked up on the knife, that would be very kind of you. If not, no problem though!
Still can´t really figure how that massive guard would NOT get in the way to some extent when choking up.
I want to emphasize here: I think it is great, that the knife HAS this kind of guard. Would not be a bowie if it didn´t!

So in conclusion: That "choil" really seems to be a multipurpose feature: Enhances chopping ability, makes it easyier to pull the knife out of material... AND can also act like a good old finger choil... ;)

Dont worry warstein, thats why we participate in a forum :) i took some pictures with different grips, hope i can help you with them. And again thanks everyone for the warm welcome
Best regards,
David

https://m.imgur.com/a/3oC0TzX
Hi David,

thank you very much for taking and posting the pictures! Though you obviously can´t place your hand as far forward as it would be the case without any guard on the upper part of the handle, still the guard is much less in the way than I would have guessed. And using the "Ricasso" as a finger choil looks just fine.
Man, now there is no more doubt left for me: If I ever purchase a bowie it will be the Respect, 100 %. For me and for how I use knives, in a blade that big a usable finger choil that allows you to get closer to the edge and balance the knife better for finer tasks is a must have. The Respect obviously offers that, though it´s not the primary purpose of that "choil" as Sal pointed out. Great design,

What Sal pointed out, was that the main purpose of the "choil" was to get a better grasp on the knife when chopping - that obviously works by putting your index finger in front of the guard. I know, that you won´t actually chop something with your new Respect, but still: How does a chopping motion feel in that kind of grip? Is there enough heft in the blade or do you wish to choke back to the end of the handle as one normally does to achieve maximum impact when chopping?

Thanks again for the pics!
I can recommend it 100% Im a big Bowie fan and collect and carry them everyday. I own the Cold steel 1917, Natchez, and laredo Bowie, and numerous more. But the respect is just something different, it is hard to explain but just the look, balance, feel and quality is on a different level. Its just a masterpiece. It was worth every penny. I didnt knew that Spyderco offers this quality for the price they sell.

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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Mad Mac » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:56 pm

Not to put too fine a point on it, let's look at the etymology of knife parts. A steel blank is profiled into a blade with a tang. The edge is ground leaving a plunge line to distinguish between the two. Scales, bolsters, a guard or a quillon may be added to the tang. The part of the tang left uncovered is the ricasso. A sharpening choil may be ground where the edge meets the ricasso at the plunge line.

Typically, Spyderco knives do not have a sharpening choil, as in this Starmate.

Image

One exception is the Gayle Bradley. Instead of a small notch as commonly found on many pocket knives, it is round.

Image

The Stretch has the Spyderco trademark "finger choil" that bridges the blade and the scales. Notice that it is behind the plunge line of the blade. A sharpening choil would be in front of the plunge line.

Image

The Native is another good example of the finger choil with jimping. It is behind the plunge line and there is no sharpening choil.

Image

When the tang, the ricasso, is smaller than the blade there is no need for a sharpening choil as the edge is free of obstruction to be sharpened full length, as in the Bill Moran drop point.

Image

With all due respect, in my opinion, the Respect does not have a "generous choil in the ricasso". The blade is larger than the tang and the edge is free to be sharpened full length without the need for a sharpening choil. Nor does the ricasso have a finger choil or finger groove ground into it, with jimping. It is a traditional, generous ricasso found on fighting knives of that era, that allowed the combatant to grasp the handle about the quillon or double guard for greater strength.

But I could be wrong, or simply a pedant. In any event, the Respect is an absolutely beautiful blade beyond my means and a fine tribute to a classic American knife. Well done, Sir.
1990: Endura SE, Delica PE, Mariner, Police. 2014: ClipiTool Bottle Opener. 2015: Kitchen Knife PE, Tenacious CE, Stretch PE, Moran Drop Point, Kiwi, two Byrd Cara Caras, Schempp Bowie, Native 5 Forum Knife, Sharpmaker, Police SE, Small SpyderPac, Ultra-Fine Stones, Tenacious SE, 4" Paring Knife, 2" Paring Knife, Starmate. 2016: The Spyderco Story, The Tactical Folding Knife, USN Ladybug H-1 Hawkbill SE, Black BaliYo, Yellow H-1 Salt Dragonfly 2 SE, Ulize, Pink Native 5 PE, Renegade C23PS and C23P, Gayle Bradley 2, Double Bevel, Gayle Bradley Air, Cricket Blue Nishjin, Centofante Memory, K2, two Large Lum Pink G10, Rubicon. 2017: Battlestation, Orange Positron, Gray Baliyo, Native 5 CE, Tenacious CE. 2018: EuroEdge, ClipiTool Standard, 2019 Calendar Contest Rhino CF PLN.
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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby MichaelScott » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:36 pm

MichaelScott wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:41 am
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/choil

Definition of choil in English:
choil
NOUN

The end of a knife's cutting edge which is nearer to the handle.


So, it seems a choil is not a ricasso, and a ricasso is not a choil.
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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Michael Janich » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:13 am

The first time I saw an index finger wrapped around the guard of a Bowie was in David E. Steele's "Secrets of Modern Knife Fighting," published in the mid 1970's. He advocated it as a means of locking the knife into your hand for maximum-force thrusts.

When it comes to terminology, I tend to fall back on the the classics in my library. The glossary of "How to Make Knives" by Robert W. Loveless and Richard W. Barney defines a choil as "cutaway area between cutting edge and guard." Descriptively, that certainly seems to fit that feature of the Respect's design. And since the other contributors to that book included Bill Moran, Buster Warenski, Corbet Sigman, Michael Collins, and Jim Small, I consider it a very authoritative source. Hence my choice of terms when I wrote both the byte article and the Product Information Guide for the Respect.

Stay safe,

Mike

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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Mad Mac » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:39 am

In another life when I worked for a British parts company, I wrote a monthly email newsletter for 10,000 British car enthusiasts. After being bashed a few times by my readers for an error, an oversight, poetic license or marketing hyperbole, I began allowing our Jaguar and Land Rover experts and our number one factory trained Jaguar technician to review the newsletter before I sent it. Even then, I would tremble and hang onto the desk when I "plunked the detonator" to send the email to 10,000 critics.

I apologize for being overly critical and unnecessarily harsh. Sometimes, I can't help myself.

Keep up the good work, Mike. I enjoy your writing and the "edge-ucation".
1990: Endura SE, Delica PE, Mariner, Police. 2014: ClipiTool Bottle Opener. 2015: Kitchen Knife PE, Tenacious CE, Stretch PE, Moran Drop Point, Kiwi, two Byrd Cara Caras, Schempp Bowie, Native 5 Forum Knife, Sharpmaker, Police SE, Small SpyderPac, Ultra-Fine Stones, Tenacious SE, 4" Paring Knife, 2" Paring Knife, Starmate. 2016: The Spyderco Story, The Tactical Folding Knife, USN Ladybug H-1 Hawkbill SE, Black BaliYo, Yellow H-1 Salt Dragonfly 2 SE, Ulize, Pink Native 5 PE, Renegade C23PS and C23P, Gayle Bradley 2, Double Bevel, Gayle Bradley Air, Cricket Blue Nishjin, Centofante Memory, K2, two Large Lum Pink G10, Rubicon. 2017: Battlestation, Orange Positron, Gray Baliyo, Native 5 CE, Tenacious CE. 2018: EuroEdge, ClipiTool Standard, 2019 Calendar Contest Rhino CF PLN.
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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Archimedes » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:30 pm

Back to the original thread...

I got my Respect today and what a fantastic piece. It just checks all the right boxes. The size is perfect. It feels perfect in the hand.

Amazing craftsmanship!

Sheath is a perfect match.

All in all this blade gets a 10 out of 10 on my BladeOmeter!

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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Davidzhs » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:30 pm

Archimedes wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:30 pm
Back to the original thread...

I got my Respect today and what a fantastic piece. It just checks all the right boxes. The size is perfect. It feels perfect in the hand.

Amazing craftsmanship!

Sheath is a perfect match.

All in all this blade gets a 10 out of 10 on my BladeOmeter!
Nice to hear that you enjoy it as much is i do. I really didnt expect Spyderco knives to offer this amazing quality for this reasonable prices. They are not cheap, but also not to expensive and really worth every penny. Now im looking for a Spyderco Civilian hope it is as good as the Respect.

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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Archimedes » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:13 pm

A quick picture.

I can't put this beauty down. I love the slip sheath option.
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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby Davidzhs » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:33 pm

I know you feeling, i take it everywhere i go and when im at home i am always playing around with it lol.

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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby MacLaren » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:26 pm

I wander what the spine actually measures?

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Re: Respect Bowie short feedback

Postby emanuel » Mon May 06, 2019 7:17 am

Mad Mac wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:56 pm

When the tang, the ricasso, is smaller than the blade there is no need for a sharpening choil as the edge is free of obstruction to be sharpened full length, as in the Bill Moran drop point.

Image
There is no need generally, but the Bill Moran you showed as an example does have a sharpening choil. It's not a notch, but you can easily see how it's cut into the edge near the heal of the blade.

Honestly I like a sharpening choil on bigger blades (no finger choils, I despise them), particularly if the forward handle grip is keeping your fingers close enough to the edge for decent power cuts, as it allows me to have a reverse grip without getting my skin fold nicked in the edge, issue that I had with knives with the edge all the way to the heel.

Example: Image


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