Paramilitary 2, a delicate knife?

[Spyderman91]

Good Evening Spydermen and Women,

Attached is a comment I ran into on a Facebook group earlier today, normally I brush off a little trash talk... but he happened to be talking about my favorite model. The biggest insult of all was referring to the pm2 as "pocket jewelry", the equivalent of "flowery kicks, and pillow punches" in the martial arts world. When I bought my knife, I bought it knowing it was the best and made in America.

I got so much use out of my Chinese tenacious that once I got a taste of the Golden it was game over. So my question to you all is do you agree with the statement that the pm2 is a "Delicate knife". One that is to be collected rather than use, or do you get down and dirty with the PM2 on a daily basis.
Me personally the pm2, along with the shaman are cycled in my rotation often but I always go for the paramilitary. I've cut the usual cardboard, sharpened branches in the woods, cut fruit, cut paper, cut letters, but I never tried to "pry" with it... Nor have I gone and stabbed something using full force..

because really at the end of the day... a knife is made to cut, it would be nice to MacGyver a knife into an omni-tool... but ultimately, it's main purpose is to cut and that is something the PM2 does exceptionally well.

[TomAiello]

It depends on how you use it. If you're a guy who regularly abuses (prying with the tip, for example) your knife, then something thick (hence a poor slicer) might be more appropriate for you. Which ZT us he talking about? My favorite ZT (0770) still isn't exactly what I'd call stout.

It's a case of matching the tool to the user and the tasks, I guess.

Full disclosure--I've broken the tip off a PM2 when prying with it, and yes, I know I shouldn't have done that.

No idea what he's on about with the chipping stuff, though. That hasn't been my experience at all. My most used PM2 is M390, so maybe he had chipping with s110v or s30v or something?

[vivi]

Just because someone has an opinion, does not mean it is an intelligent view.

[Nate]

Full disclosure--I've broken the tip off a PM2 when prying with it, and yes, I know I shouldn't have done that.

Same. The tip is delicate if you drop the knife or use it to pry when you shouldn't, but I never viewed it as a negative. If used properly, a fine tip can be an asset.

The piece I broke off one of mine was so tiny it 's hard to see unless you're looking for it... and now the tip on it is stronger.

[captnvegtble]

Spyderco knives are not delicate. They are made for use, and hard use... including the Paramilitary 2. Obviously you shouldn't pry with it or you will break the tip off. I've never had a problem. There are other knives that are built more like a "tank" (that comes at the cost of increased weight and lower carry-ability for EDC in other knives) but it's hard to beat the ergonomics and cutting ability of a Paramilitary 2; that's why it's still one of the most popular knives on the market.

The chipping issue is dependent on steel. Spyderco is constantly pushing the envelop with new and higher-end steels than other companies, and knife aficionados flock to these steels to try them out and comment on their experience... so depending on which steel you buy you could get a little chipping at the edge bevel. Mostly I've heard this being an issue with very high vanadium steels like S110V. If you get general run-of-the-mill S30V, it shouldn't be an issue. By the way... S30V is what other high-end knife companies are moving to, but is one of Spyderco's more "boring" steels.

[Evil D]

It's delicate compared to a butcher's cleaver, it's a tank compared to an Opinel. Sounds like the person who made the comment prefers having a knife that can handle "wrong tool for the job" uses like prying. That's HIS qualification for what is delicate. I would argue that many of the ZT's make poor cutting tools because they're too thick.

[soc_monki]

Depends really. If you use a knife to pry with it is, imo, abuse. A knife is a cutting tool, and as such it should be used to cut! You want to pry use a prybar. It's like in my trade (electrician) many people use their linemans pliers and a screwdriver as a hammer and chisel, or to tighten lock rings. I have a hammer to hammer with, and a demo screwdriver to stand up to being hammered on.
I have specific wrenches for lock rings.

What I'm getting at is, use the right tool for the job. I use a knife as a knife, and they never fail me when it comes to their job. Cutting tie wraps I use diagonal cutters. Although I will use my zt for that... Lol it has a strong tip, along with my other kershaws. A spydie would do it pretty well also however!

My para 3 is anything but pocket jewelry. But I'm not going to abuse it either.

[carrot]

The question is, do you want a knife or do you want a crowbar?

Spyderco doesn’t sell crowbars anymore since discontinuing the Probe.

[chalet]

In my opinion it isn’t a delicate knife. I just wouldn’t pry anything with it. I’ve stabbed mine into wood and it’s been fine. The tip is perfect for utility, like if you needed a new hole in a belt or to get a splinter out of your skin or something, or making really precise cuts. Because the knife has such a strong lock people do silly things with them, stuff they can’t do with things like a SAK.

A good example of a knife from history would be the Fairbairn Sykes dagger, definitely a hard use knife. Served its purpose well but you can be certain people weren’t prying things open with them. If they did I’m pretty sure the tip wouldn’t hold up. Look at the Spyderco Military. Fantastic cutter, probably would fare well in stabbing through most materials as well. Would not pry with it.

I also wouldn’t pry with any folding knife or baton with any knife period. That’s just me though.

[curlyhairedboy]

I'd rather have a delicate tip than a sometimes unreliable lock...

but the shaman is better than both.

[michaelm466]

I accidently dropped my CTS-20CP PM2 tip first into a steel sink from about 3 feet up once, put a nice divot in the sink and rounded about half a mm of the tip that sharpened out easily on the next sharpening and that's a lower toughness steel than the standard S30V variation not to mention the tougher tool steel variations. I also have about 12 variations that I cycle through with other Spydercos, and other brands without having any problems including cutting through some tough double walled cardboard frequently at work, never had any chipping problems, I also don't pry or use it as a screwdriver (that's why I carry a SAK or Leatherman in the other pocket) but what do I know.

[Spyderman91]

It depends on how you use it. If you're a guy who regularly abuses (prying with the tip, for example) your knife, then something thick (hence a poor slicer) might be more appropriate for you. Which ZT us he talking about? My favorite ZT (0770) still isn't exactly what I'd call stout.

It's a case of matching the tool to the user and the tasks, I guess.

Full disclosure--I've broken the tip off a PM2 when prying with it, and yes, I know I shouldn't have done that.

No idea what he's on about with the chipping stuff, though. That hasn't been my experience at all. My most used PM2 is M390, so maybe he had chipping with s110v or s30v or something?

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the 0562.

[The Mastiff]

'm pretty sure he was talking about the 0562.

It sounds as if he doesn't have personal experience with that knife and is interpreting others experiences with them. In other words he is talking out his a$$. Often times the strongest opinions are the least informed ones. There is nothing wrong with him preferring other brands though. We all have different needs and preferences.

Joe

[Pelagic]

There's really nothing wrong with the pm2. And you won't get much criticism of it here. I've grown to dislike the ergonomics somewhat during hard use, and I do feel the tip is delicate depending on the model (hardness). But it's certainly not a "delicate" knife. I'm not sure what they expect. You may have to tighten the pivot from time to time after hard use, but not frequently. Any knife can be broken, and it's not always about misuse or prying. Mistakes happen. I'm usually brutally honest with my opinions and don't shy away from being critical, but they are just wrong here. And keep in mind, I'm probably known for being a harder use guy. I've seen videos of dozens of ZT's not even pass a simple spine wack test (lock failure). The claims of the edge being chippy are bogus. ANY KNIFE can be somewhat chippy on the factory edge, and even after 1-3 sharpenings. The fatigued steel must be removed before judging a steel or heat treat.

[soc_monki]

I think spine whacking a knife is abuse. Under normal use a knife won't fail, but if you use it to pry, twist, or anything like that I would expect failure. Just my opinion.

[Pelagic]

Spine wacking as a test is perfectly valid imo. It's something a lock should be able to withstand. Imagine making a mistake and having something hit the spine and having the knife close on your fingers. I live in a world where mistakes are made and I'm glad no spyderco knife I've ever tested has failed a spine wack test.

[ladybug93]

i have a zt0350 and it's more robust than any spyderco i have owned. it's not just about a thick blade (the yojimbo has the thickest blade i've ever owned in a folder). it's more robust all around. the only argument you could make for spyderco is the compression lock or cbbl being stronger than a liner lock, but lockup doesn't matter near as much as people seem to care about. i'd happily use a swiss army knife with no lock at all.

i guess it comes down to how you use a knife. i'd rather use the zt in a tactical situation, but it's not even close to as good of an edc knife as my spydercos for a multitude of reasons (it's heavy, it's overbuilt, it's super wide at the top of the pocket, it tears up my hand when reaching into the pocket, too much knife is visible outside of the pocket, etc.). that said, even if i were to end up in a survival or tactical situation with my manix 2 lw, i'm confident it would get any of the same jobs done and i wouldn't care if i slightly damaged the tip to save my life.

i understand the sentiment though... once you get used to using overbuilt items, everything else feels week and cheap. you really have to make a conscious effort to be honest with yourself about what is necessary. it took a lot for me to hang up the maxpedition bags in favor of a small hiking pack and to relegate my esee 5 to vehicle carry in favor of moras for journeys into the wilds.

people that insist on the heaviest duty gear probably never actually use it, so the tips of their pm2s would likely be safe either way.

[ferider]

Spine wacking as a test is perfectly valid imo. It's something a lock should be able to withstand. Imagine making a mistake and having something hit the spine and having the knife close on your fingers. I live in a world where mistakes are made and I'm glad no spyderco knife I've ever tested has failed a spine wack test.

It depends:

1) ZT's QA includes one single spine wack. My different ZTs pass that test easily. And, to prevent accidental closure, that is the correct test, IMO.
2) Now, the complaints/Youtube videos, etc., observe knife closure after repeated spine wacks (> 3?). I can do that with most of my ZTs and with other frame lock flippers too, and you can see how the lock opens up a step at a time if you wack it with just the right frequency. Practically irrelevant, if you ask me, unless you use the knife while also using a sledge hammer :rolleyes:
3) The same "Testers" love an early lock engagement, typically. God knows why. Spyderco RIL (Millitary, GB, etc) typically have ~50 - 60% lockup engagement, which is a good thing.
4) Finally, the "Testers" also don't tell you if they disassembled / "cleaned" the knife before the test, which can ever so slightly misalign the lock and tang and make the spine test fail earlier. I read that aligning an RIL in the factory, making it most effective is not trivial.

The PM2 is a little more delicate than other Spydercos (say, the Manix2 or the Chinook 1 :) ), and more delicate than - say - my ZT0456. On the other hand, the PM2 is less delicate than - say - the ZT0462 or 0450CF. In other words, it's not black and white.

I use different knives within my comfort zone with them, different knives for different purposes. After all, that's why we all need more than one knife, of course :)

Roland.

[tonijedi]

In my opinion, yes, it is a delicate knife. It's also unbalanced, with a very thick spine near the handle and a very flimsy tip on the other point. I have one, it's a fun knife and most of all it's very appealing to the eye.
The fine tip does have its advantages, like others have already said, but if I need an x-acto I'll carry an x-acto. I want my pocket knives to be fairly multi-tasking and with such a tip the PM2 isn't.

[brainfriction]

If you drop it or use it as a pry bar you'll probably snap the tip off. I've done it, not a big deal though. You can shape it similar to the Delica and re-sharpen and it's good to go.