This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

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SpyderEdgeForever
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This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:25 am

As some on here have said, and please confirm for me if this is true or not: VG10 and H1 Stainless Steel cannot be used outside of Japan? This is a travesty, this is not right. It is one thing for people to invent something and then license it to others, it is a whole other thing to monopolize it and say others cannot make that steel outside a particular nation. If they can make it they should be allowed to make it. What if a nation said "Noone outside of our nation can make steel." That would be nonsense. Steel is a basic metal and mineral and part of the Earth. One may as well say "We cannot allow sapphire or emeralds to be made outside of so and so country".

How this relates to Spyderco: I believe that Spyderco and other knife makers need to be able to produce H1 and VG10 steel or some rendition of it locally and domestically so as to make these wonderful blade materials more widely available to the global cutlery market.

How can this travesty be changed and fixed?

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby The Mastiff » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:39 am

VG 10 knives are being made in PRC now. It's advertised as Vg 10 anyways.

Joe

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby dd61999 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:44 am

It’s called property rights. The manufacturer can utilize its products in any way they desire

If they choose poorly the market will correct them. But honestly it might not be a bad marketing decision since knives and steels are mostly a commodity item
Last edited by dd61999 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby zhyla » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:46 am

Image

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:52 am

The Mastiff wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:39 am
VG 10 knives are being made in PRC now. It's advertised as Vg 10 anyways.

Joe
I have read of that. There is also a Spanish knife maker selling a knife and claims the blade steel is VG10. Some people who bought it put comments saying they are surprised that they are making it outside of Japan or something like that. The odd thing is that in the advertisement picture, you see the words "VG10" engraved on the blade, but, when you get the actual knife, it says "molybdenum vanadium" and not VG10. Is that a marketing scam or could it be another form of VG10?

Also: What is to stop non-Japanese companies from reverse engineering VG10 and H1 steel's basic formula and either changing it a bit or making their own batches of it?

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby dd61999 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:16 am

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:52 am
The Mastiff wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:39 am
VG 10 knives are being made in PRC now. It's advertised as Vg 10 anyways.

Joe


Also: What is to stop non-Japanese companies from reverse engineering VG10 and H1 steel's basic formula and either changing it a bit or making their own batches of it?
Absolutely nothing, but many consumers prefer to have the real thing instead of a knock off

Such as Coca Cola and Lamborghini....otherwise everyone would be drinking store brand soda or driving kit cars

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:23 am

Yes, ofcourse.

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby steelcity16 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:27 am

How was Spyderco able to do the Autonomy in H1 in the USA?

I REALLY want a G10 Military Salt in SE H1, so I would love to see this happen.
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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby JD Spydo » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:32 am

The Mastiff wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:39 am
VG 10 knives are being made in PRC now. It's advertised as Vg 10 anyways.

Joe
Well Mastiff I'm in no way making any disparaging remark toward you at all because your integrity is well established>> But considering the country you mentioned ( PRC) they are well known for counterfeiting, copying without patent rights, stealing intellectual property rights, and just outright making cheap, disgusting imitations of almost any product that represents quality. With that said and I can back up every word of it>> people that are true knife lovers like most of us here in Spyderville are should be very suspect of any knife made in that country IMO; regardless of whatever blade steel they claim to make it with. I've just got to continue my boycott of that country and it's goods because of all the unethical violations they are constantly and repeatedly guilty of.

I would be truly super cautious of anything that comes from there. I might cave in on the Spyderco Byrd stuff under the right situation because in that case I know the materials would not be counterfeit or fraudulent >> and Sal would make sure they played by the rules. However the CROSSBILL is about the only model I've ever had any interest in concerning the Byrd line. And truly Mastiff I have my sincere doubts if they were to use real McCoy, VG-10 blade steel.

How would they get it? Because I've heard that them and Japan have a very rocky relationship.

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby JacksonKnives » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:34 am

JD Spydo wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:32 am
The Mastiff wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:39 am
VG 10 knives are being made in PRC now. It's advertised as Vg 10 anyways.

Joe
...
people that are true knife lovers like most of us here in Spyderville are should be very suspect of any knife made in that country IMO; regardless of whatever blade steel they claim to make it with. I've just got to continue my boycott of that country and it's goods because of all the unethical violations they are constantly and repeatedly guilty of.
And truly Mastiff I have my sincere doubts if they were to use real McCoy, VG-10 blade steel.

How would they get it? Because I've heard that them and Japan have a very rocky relationship.
It's not that simple anymore.
Henckels brought China into the cutlery game in a big way, and even in Japan Henckels is a force to be reckoned with.
Some say the Japanese manufacturers also started bringing Chinese employees into their factories when their local workforce started retiring and they didn't have locals to replace them.

The access to VG-10 in PRC is limited, but there are enough connections to make it happen. If anything, it seems that there's not enough demand for the Japanese to be panicking yet. Some speculate that the more successful kitchen cutlery start-ups like Cangshan or Dalstrong could probably get successful enough that the Japanese would try to shut down Hitachi's exports, but for now there's a small supply trickling out. 300-piece runs of pocket knives are a drop in the bucket.

There have been US steel supply houses that got their hands on small quantities of Hitachi white steel, so it's possible to import here, but it's far too expensive to be competitive. There are other good steels available from US mills. Boker uses VG-10 in Taiwan, but it seems like it's easier for Spyderco to get XHP there (or maybe Spyderco prefers the performance).

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby Slash » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:53 am

They can keep those. Just give me Hanzo steel

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby Deadboxhero » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:30 am

Nah, plenty of great US steels to use. Let the Japanese keep their steel. It's their tradition and culture. They don't want to sell off there heritage and have everyone run away with the steel and stave off their knife making culture.

Besides why do we want H1 and Vg10?


LC200N does both things better.


The really interesting japanese steels are Aogami Super, Shirogami 1a, HAP40, and ZDP189



So buy "Made in Japan"

Support the culture and tradition.
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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:55 am

Deadboxhero wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:30 am
Nah, plenty of great US steels to use. Let the Japanese keep their steel. It's their tradition and culture. They don't want to sell off there heritage and have everyone run away with the steel and stave off their knife making culture.

Besides why do we want H1 and Vg10?


LC200N does both things better.


The really interesting japanese steels are Aogami Super, Shirogami 1a, HAP40, and ZDP189



So buy "Made in Japan"

Support the culture and tradition.
I was under the impression H1 is tougher, and may show greater edge retention on serrated blades.

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby Deadboxhero » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:03 pm

420j2 is pretty tough too.
Vivi wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:55 am
Deadboxhero wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:30 am
Nah, plenty of great US steels to use. Let the Japanese keep their steel. It's their tradition and culture. They don't want to sell off there heritage and have everyone run away with the steel and stave off their knife making culture.

Besides why do we want H1 and Vg10?


LC200N does both things better.


The really interesting japanese steels are Aogami Super, Shirogami 1a, HAP40, and ZDP189



So buy "Made in Japan"

Support the culture and tradition.
I was under the impression H1 is tougher, and may show greater edge retention on serrated blades.
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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby AccountDeletedUserRequest » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:52 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:03 pm
420j2 is pretty tough too.
Vivi wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:55 am
Deadboxhero wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:30 am
Nah, plenty of great US steels to use. Let the Japanese keep their steel. It's their tradition and culture. They don't want to sell off there heritage and have everyone run away with the steel and stave off their knife making culture.

Besides why do we want H1 and Vg10?


LC200N does both things better.


The really interesting japanese steels are Aogami Super, Shirogami 1a, HAP40, and ZDP189



So buy "Made in Japan"

Support the culture and tradition.
I was under the impression H1 is tougher, and may show greater edge retention on serrated blades.
Not sure I'm getting your point? H1 is tougher than 420j2....and more corrosion resistant....and holds an edge longer.....

I'm just pointing out that LC200N, while it improves on H1 in many ways based on everything I've read / watched, if someone values toughness and serrated edge retention more than the ability to be full flat ground and hold an edge well in PE, H1 could be the better choice.

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby Stuart Ackerman » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:55 am

I managed a few years ago to get some VG10, from a Japanese fella that wanted one of my knives.
I offered N690, it's close relative. and he produced some VG10 in 3mm plate...paperwork and sales slip attached.

I made quite a few knives from the plate, and have one knife left.

I cannot tell the difference between VG10 and N690 in use, sharpening, and stain resistance.

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby The Mastiff » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:33 am

would be truly super cautious of anything that comes from there. I might cave in on the Spyderco Byrd stuff under the right situation because in that case I know the materials would not be counterfeit or fraudulent >> and Sal would make sure they played by the rules. However the CROSSBILL is about the only model I've ever had any interest in concerning the Byrd line. And truly Mastiff I have my sincere doubts if they were to use real McCoy, VG-10 blade steel.
I completely agree with you Joe. The only PRC made knives I'd buy are Byrd knives because and only because I trust Spyderco to actually check things are what they are supposed to be. A few years ago I bought a "Camillus" knife made in PRC that is supposed to be VG 10. I can't say for sure what steel it is but it definitely is not performing like Spyderco Japan made VG 10 in cutting or sharpening. That is why I stated it is advertised as VG 10. Whatever it is I don't think I will be buying more no matter how good the price seems.

Joe

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby fanglekai » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:06 am

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:25 am
As some on here have said, and please confirm for me if this is true or not: VG10 and H1 Stainless Steel cannot be used outside of Japan? This is a travesty, this is not right. It is one thing for people to invent something and then license it to others, it is a whole other thing to monopolize it and say others cannot make that steel outside a particular nation. If they can make it they should be allowed to make it. What if a nation said "Noone outside of our nation can make steel." That would be nonsense. Steel is a basic metal and mineral and part of the Earth. One may as well say "We cannot allow sapphire or emeralds to be made outside of so and so country".

How this relates to Spyderco: I believe that Spyderco and other knife makers need to be able to produce H1 and VG10 steel or some rendition of it locally and domestically so as to make these wonderful blade materials more widely available to the global cutlery market.

How can this travesty be changed and fixed?
There's something called trade secrets. Anyone can keep an invention or process secret and be the sole producer. The Colonel's secret 11 herbs and spices for KFC. The formula for Coca-Cola. Source code. Same goes for steel and anything else.

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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby steelcity16 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:47 pm

Vivi wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:52 pm

if someone values toughness and serrated edge retention more than the ability to be full flat ground and hold an edge well in PE, H1 could be the better choice.

I've been saying this since LC200N arrived on the scene. I think in an ideal tariff-free world perhaps all Salts would be offered in LC200N for PE and H1 for SE. I would love a Native Salt in H1 SE, but I will likely never buy the LC200N SE version unless I start seeing hard use reports comparing it favorably to H1 SE. H1 SE is the bar right now, and I haven't seen anyone saying LC200N is raising the bar for SE, let alone approaching it.
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Re: This must change: VG10 and H1 to be used outside of Japan. What can Spyderco do?

Postby Bill1170 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:33 am

steelcity16 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:47 pm
Vivi wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:52 pm

if someone values toughness and serrated edge retention more than the ability to be full flat ground and hold an edge well in PE, H1 could be the better choice.

I've been saying this since LC200N arrived on the scene. I think in an ideal tariff-free world perhaps all Salts would be offered in LC200N for PE and H1 for SE. I would love a Native Salt in H1 SE, but I will likely never buy the LC200N SE version unless I start seeing hard use reports comparing it favorably to H1 SE. H1 SE is the bar right now, and I haven't seen anyone saying LC200N is raising the bar for SE, let alone approaching it.
Even though we have Eric Glesser’s word that H-1 outperforms LC200N in serrated edges, the LC200N still has the advantage of being offered in FFG SE, which H-1 is not offered in.


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