Page 10 of 17
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:11 pm
by JRinFL
While I often push back against price increases, I am still willing to spend good money on honest products. Spyderco makes honest products.
Overly aggressive pricing is often an indication that someone is trying to dominate a market and kill the competition. It is predatory, not merely competitive. One has to ask where they get the money to make up the shortfall when dumping their products into a market? What is the long term goal?
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:49 pm
by C_Claycomb
Hello folks,
I saw this thread when it started, then life got in the way and I came back only at the start of the month. Glad to hear so many folk like the Bushcraft and Proficient. They don't get talked about nearly as much on-line as the folder range.
I loved the idea of a Micarta 3V or Cru-Wear Proficient (or flat ground Bushcraft). I have two Proficient models and while I use the first one (without the designer's mark), I can't help but holding back from really working it hard...its just too pretty and while a friend has proven you can baton on the S90V, I still haven't been able to bring myself to do so.
It feels good having something you design be successful, having a lot of people get it and put it to work. I think these are pretty good tools so the more people who can use them the better. As awesome as the carbon fibre / S90V Proficient is, I have always wished there was a slightly rougher more affordable version that could appeal to a wider audience and that folk would be even more likely to work hard.
Of late I have been very impressed with the output by Lion Steel (I have three of their folders and rarely carry anything else now, unless it is my S110V UKPK :)). Knives made in Italy, good steel, CNC contoured handles left with a lovely buffed scalloped finish, really nice attention to detail, good ergonomics, Italian wet mould leather sheaths, and MSRP in the US between $160 and $210 :eek: . In the UK, prices run £124-£160 while Bark Rivers with more basic design and ergonomics are £100 more expensive. I know that import duties play a part, but you guys have a similar delta in the US.
The differences in fit and construction between what we have in the current Proficient and say the Lion Steel Bushcraft B41 or M4 would not be deal breakers for me if I were shopping for such a knife and an outdoor tool.
Chris
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:33 pm
by curlyhairedboy
I've handled Lionsteel's fixed blade offerings and they are definitely appealing. Their HRC results have given me reason to be cautious, however.
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:31 pm
by sal
Hi Curlyhairedboy,
Once they are gone, they're gone. We've only done one run.
sal
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:34 pm
by sal
JRinFL wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:11 pm
While I often push back against price increases, I am still willing to spend good money on honest products. Spyderco makes honest products.
Overly aggressive pricing is often an indication that someone is trying to dominate a market and
kill the competition. It is predatory, not merely competitive. One has to ask where they get the money to make up the shortfall when dumping their products into a market? What is the long term goal?
Hi JR,
There is much info on this issue and I have studied this extensively. I just don't think I want to argue politics on this forum.
sal
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:39 pm
by u.w.
Hey Chris,
Thanks for your post. Good info for me to look in to.
I own both the wooden burl and G10 handled Spyderco Bushcrafter(s), and MAN - I LOVE that knife! It just flat out works Amazingly Well at Every task I have ever done with it, and I've done quite a lot with it across the years.
THANK YOU for such a Fantastic design!!! and Thank You of course to Spyderco, for putting it out to the market.
u.w.
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:07 pm
by sal
Hi Chris,
Thanx for chiming in. Even our excellent maker in Taichung had to make a number of prototypes to be able to hone in on your GREAT handle. incremental changes 1mm at a time over a long time to get your handle exactly as you designed it. I was very persistent to get it right.
If any of you that were lucky enough to get one of the original Spalted Maple" version, (a nightmare for us), was really a great project. You should frame it, have Chris sign it and hang it on the wall.
Probably one of the most hot spot free handle of all time.
When I first looked into Bushcraft, UK Ken asked us to consider making a Bushcraft model because the "best" was no longer available. I thought no problem. :o The more I studied the Bushcraft activity, the more I realized that I didn't have the experience to make the BEST Bushcraft knife. ( and we like to be the best). As I studied and learned, I came across Bushcraft UK, and After communicating with you guys and getting the sample of your knife I had the epiphany that I was holding and using the most evolved tool for this job. Personally, I prefer your NASA version, the Proficient, but that's just me. I don't "Bushcraft" but I do do "outside" quite a bit.
I would love to make a less expensive model, I just don't know how....yet. I really don't have the confidence that another maker could duplicate your handle and now that we have it down, I don't want to change it. I, we, you and the maker have a great deal invested in this design. Not a huge market, and smaller because of the high cost, but really a "Rembrandt" that's reproducible.
The only thing that I can think of at this time is FRN. Your thoughts?
sal
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:17 pm
by Dazen
Sal,
We appreciate everything that went into bringing us this design. While I’m sad that the Crucarta version will not come to fruition, I would be very much interested in an FRN version and possibly getting even more steels in this design! K390, 4V, AEB-L, M4, 52100....
Dane
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:39 pm
by foofie
The Proficient is one of two fixed blade I will never part with - the other being a Phil Wilson custom. The handle is that good. I also love micarta, and would have purchased the crucarta version regardless of the cost.
That said - it is the handle than is the key to the design. If it can be reproduced in frn, it would be a very compelling package at a more compelling price.
Would the frn be like the Moran, or more like the Enuff?
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:38 am
by sal
Hi Foofie,
My thought was smooth like the original, but I'm open to all thoughts.
sal
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:56 am
by Dazen
I don’t know? Smooth would keep it like the original, but, if you could get ones like the Enuff with a little texture and still have the exact same handle contouring you might be on to something! Having the scales removable might help in maintaining rust in the tool steels as well.
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:11 pm
by Fireman
Looks like we need a proficient mule! Seems like there’s plenty people for that team then people can put whatever their heart desires on their handles and go out there and play caveman (Says the biggest caveman)
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:02 pm
by Bemo
Proficient mule is an excellent idea!
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:00 pm
by Tucson Tom
Well, this is too bad, but I guess it saves me money.
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:42 pm
by Fireman
Bemo wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:02 pm
Proficient mule is an excellent idea!
Right!?!?!?!
Then we just have to fight over what steels.
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:17 pm
by C_Claycomb
Sal, et al.
Is there enough potential sales value in trying to make further use of the Taichung investment that made these machined handles possible? The Proficient didn't sell all that fast and unless its possible to make some changes that reduce manufacturing cost then I don't see a reason a new version would sell faster. Adjusting the design to reduce these costs will cost engineering time, will there be enough payback to make it worth while?
Is there value in using the handle shape or blade profile in some other combination? The idea of a Proficient or Bushcraft blade shape with FRN scales is interesting. I confess that when Sal first mentioned the idea of a "NASA Bushcraft" the picture that came to my mind was a moulded handle like the Moran. Machining that much carbon fiber :eek: didn't register with me till much later. It would have the dual advantage of reducing unit cost and reducing weight, which with such thick handles on full tangs....well, I think lighter would be nice.
Mould tooling is quite expensive.
If a mould tool was to be considered, I think the handle could be refined a little to make it even more comfortable.
Texture.
I would argue strongly against the kind of texture applied to the Enuff, but a light texture would be good. The Benchmade 200 Puukko has what looks like a great texture, but it is the one feature of that knife that stops me from wanting to carry it. Grip it hard and it leaves an uncomfortable waffle imprint in my hand. Interestingly it did not cause blisters when I used the knife for a long carving session, but it was not comfortable to hold.
The whole purpose of the fat handle is that it smoothly spreads load when gripped hard and performing hard cuts in wood or other resisting material. I haven't had a problem with slipping of the smooth handles, even when cleaning fish, but I know a little more texture would not hurt. If it had been Micarta, I would have suggested a scalloped finish (I love CNC generated texture) with a starting height to investigate of 0.006-0.01". That is what this smaller version has.
Small ProF by
Last Scratch, on Flickr
Chris
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:21 pm
by C_Claycomb
A Proficient Mule...I would have a standing order for that :D
but don't think it likely to happen, as I understand the purpose of the mule is that they are all the same shape, always will be, so they can always be compared with each other, today's with those from five or six years ago.
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:33 pm
by captnvegtble
C_Claycomb wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:17 pm
Sal, et al.
Is there enough potential sales value in trying to make further use of the Taichung investment that made these machined handles possible? The Proficient didn't sell all that fast and unless its possible to make some changes that reduce manufacturing cost then I don't see a reason a new version would sell faster. Adjusting the design to reduce these costs will cost engineering time, will there be enough payback to make it worth while?
Is there value in using the handle shape or blade profile in some other combination? The idea of a Proficient or Bushcraft blade shape with FRN scales is interesting. I confess that when Sal first mentioned the idea of a "NASA Bushcraft" the picture that came to my mind was a moulded handle like the Moran. Machining that much carbon fiber :eek: didn't register with me till much later. It would have the dual advantage of reducing unit cost and reducing weight, which with such thick handles on full tangs....well, I think lighter would be nice.
Mould tooling is quite expensive.
If a mould tool was to be considered, I think the handle could be refined a little to make it even more comfortable.
Texture.
I would argue strongly against the kind of texture applied to the Enuff, but a light texture would be good. The Benchmade 200 Puukko has what looks like a great texture, but it is the one feature of that knife that stops me from wanting to carry it. Grip it hard and it leaves an uncomfortable waffle imprint in my hand. Interestingly it did not cause blisters when I used the knife for a long carving session, but it was not comfortable to hold.
The whole purpose of the fat handle is that it smoothly spreads load when gripped hard and performing hard cuts in wood or other resisting material. I haven't had a problem with slipping of the smooth handles, even when cleaning fish, but I know a little more texture would not hurt. If it had been Micarta, I would have suggested a scalloped finish (I love CNC generated texture) with a starting height to investigate of 0.006-0.01". That is what this smaller version has.
Small ProF by
Last Scratch, on Flickr
Chris
OMG! That looks amazing... I want one of those... and an even more refined/comfortable handle sounds incredible (it's already an incredibly comfortable handle). One of the potential areas that could be radiused more is the butt of the handle where the heel of the hand rests... it looks like in the picture shown that you've rounded that area even a little more? That's the one area I've found potentially causing a little pressure (depending on how you hold the knife).
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:42 pm
by Dazen
C_Claycomb wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:21 pm
A Proficient Mule...I would have a standing order for that :D
but don't think it likely to happen, as I understand the purpose of the mule is that they are all the same shape, always will be, so they can always be compared with each other, today's with those from five or six years ago.
Thank you for your input! My thoughts were if Spyderco were to make the investment in FRN molds than multiple versions would payoff in the end. I’m completely indifferent to however the handle turns out. I’ll buy whatever comes to fruition. I would love this design in just about any steel available and having different colored FRN paired with each steel is a nice touch. I don’t want a mule where I have to make my own scales but if the scales were removable someone could make their own.
Dane
Re: Cruwear micarta Bushcraft/Proficient
Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:39 pm
by Fireman
Well, maybe call it the Proficient Donkey or Burro so no confusion with the Mule :D I can see the bare bones Proficient as well as a “Mule” Bushcrafter being wildly popular in the Bushcraft world that seems to be a growing market still. I would want a couple of each in a few steels.
C_Claycomb wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:21 pm
A Proficient Mule...I would have a standing order for that :D
but don't think it likely to happen, as I understand the purpose of the mule is that they are all the same shape, always will be, so they can always be compared with each other, today's with those from five or six years ago.