More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

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kodai78
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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby kodai78 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:03 pm

Do you think these lightweights will be pinned like the Manix? Personally I’m more interested in FRCP than FRN. A Caly or a Sage would be the models for me.
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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:03 pm

Wartstein my friend and others here: Please speculate for me: If Spyderco were to ever make a Light Weight Tanto Military or Para Military, with FRN grip, what would it feel like and how would it handle and cut? I am dreaming here :)

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby Tucson Tom » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:49 am

OK, I just have to speak my mind. I am not into this lightweight thing at all. Not even a little bit. Of the umpteen Spyderco knives I have, there is one lightweight, a Native 5 Maxamet that I bought mostly because of the steel, but also I sort of caved in to see what an FRN blade is like.

Give me G10 (or Carbon Fiber) any day. Not that my N5 LW has let me down, or that I expect it to, but G10 just looks like it is serious and ready for business and FRN looks like a kids toy. Just sayin'

This is of course simply my view, and I don't know how widely it is shared. I am glad there are FRN (or FRCP) knives there for those who like them and more power to those who do. Don't expect me to rush out and buy them however.

I should also point out that there isn't that much weight savings, nor do I see why a weight savings is really a concern. I was happily carrying my Manix 2 "heavy" in my pocket all day and was scarcely aware of it. I am very much the ultralight backpacker, and my linerless G10 Native (not the Maxamet, the one with S90V) is my "backpacking knife".

Now I can see from Spydercos point of view (insofar as I can delude myself into thinking that I do). What I see is that each G10 knife involves what looks like a fair bit of CNC machining -- whereas when you absorb the cost of having a mold for FRN made, then you can just squirt stuff into the mold and crank 'em out. (I imagine Sal or someone at Spyderco with his head in his hands at this point). So the economics are totally different, and I presume that an FRN knife is cheaper to manufacture. Nothing is quite that simple though. Anyway, gimme that G10.

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby rabbitanarchy14 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:16 am

MichaelScott wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:00 am
I think the objections to a knife like the Shaman being offered as a lightweight are sound. Such a LW knife would no longer be a Shaman. By extension, will the LW Para 3 still be a Para 3? Different scales, no liners, different lock, wire clip, tip up only, one ounce lighter. Looks like a Para 3 from a distance. Is it better? Depends on what you mean by “better”. It will certainly will offer a different experience than the Para 3 HW.

I think the weight difference is basically negligible. My keys weigh more than the weight savings.

What if Spyderco released a Military LW? Would it still be a Military with all of the attributes of the original? Would people who haven’t bought a Military HW buy a LW version?

I hope we get some real criticism (both good and bad) on the Para 3 LW. That will be really interesting.
it is the same lock for the para 3 they meant that the lock side liner is streamlined. the lock and its function and use are the same.
In-Possession - Para 3 S30V, Para 3 S35VN, Dice XHP, Lil Native S30V, Manbug Vtoku 2, Benchmade 555HGBlu, Ontario Rat 2 Green G10
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Past Knives - Byrd Crow 2 in BD1, Manix 2 S110V, Cat G10 BD1, Delica 4 Blue, Manix 2 S30V, PM2 S35VN

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby Larry_Mott » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:30 am

I'm sure lightweight versions are great and all but personally i stick with the existing LW's
I wouldn't buy a Blue Chimay light or a Shaman lightweight so there's that. :)
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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby tjsblade » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:25 am

Tucson Tom wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:49 am
OK, I just have to speak my mind. I am not into this lightweight thing at all. Not even a little bit. Of the umpteen Spyderco knives I have, there is one lightweight, a Native 5 Maxamet that I bought mostly because of the steel, but also I sort of caved in to see what an FRN blade is like.

Give me G10 (or Carbon Fiber) any day. Not that my N5 LW has let me down, or that I expect it to, but G10 just looks like it is serious and ready for business and FRN looks like a kids toy. Just sayin'

This is of course simply my view, and I don't know how widely it is shared. I am glad there are FRN (or FRCP) knives there for those who like them and more power to those who do. Don't expect me to rush out and buy them however.

I should also point out that there isn't that much weight savings, nor do I see why a weight savings is really a concern. I was happily carrying my Manix 2 "heavy" in my pocket all day and was scarcely aware of it. I am very much the ultralight backpacker, and my linerless G10 Native (not the Maxamet, the one with S90V) is my "backpacking knife".

Now I can see from Spydercos point of view (insofar as I can delude myself into thinking that I do). What I see is that each G10 knife involves what looks like a fair bit of CNC machining -- whereas when you absorb the cost of having a mold for FRN made, then you can just squirt stuff into the mold and crank 'em out. (I imagine Sal or someone at Spyderco with his head in his hands at this point). So the economics are totally different, and I presume that an FRN knife is cheaper to manufacture. Nothing is quite that simple though. Anyway, gimme that G10.
I share your thoughts with regards to LW vs the regular G10 version. I have only ever kept one LW model I bought and that is a Manix LW in Maxamet but that was because of the steel. I would have preferred it in the G10 version (I have 2 of those).
I will be trying the Para3 LW when it comes out as the Para3 line is currently my favorite EDC. I have four in different steels in my rotation.
Maybe this LW will change my feeling on them.
I just think the G10 versions feel more solid or robust which I personally prefer. I do see the market for LWs though as they are typically a lower pricepoint when comparing the exact same model.

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby ASmitty » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:55 am

Tucson Tom wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:49 am
Now I can see from Spydercos point of view (insofar as I can delude myself into thinking that I do). What I see is that each G10 knife involves what looks like a fair bit of CNC machining -- whereas when you absorb the cost of having a mold for FRN made, then you can just squirt stuff into the mold and crank 'em out. (I imagine Sal or someone at Spyderco with his head in his hands at this point). So the economics are totally different, and I presume that an FRN knife is cheaper to manufacture. Nothing is quite that simple though. Anyway, gimme that G10.
In terms of economics, FRN knives are cheaper to produce as long as there is enough demand to offset the initial tooling cost. The FRN molds are quite an expensive investment. As an example, Spyderco released the Stretch 2 in brown G-10 when they first introduced it to gauge interest before tooling up for the FRN versions. Additionally, when the Caly 3 was first released it was also in G-10 with Sal saying that a FRN version was on the back burner if the demand was present. So, the FRN models are more economically sound, but only once the demand is proven.

Personally, I like the FRN models and am glad to see more of them coming. I grew up on FRN handled knives in the 90s with most of Spyderco's core line-up as well as various other brands using FRN extensively during those years. My earliest Spyderco knives (a Snap-It and a Gen I Endura) were FRN and they were 100% workhorses. So, I've never understood the idea that some present that FRN looks like a kids toy; although, I do understand the allure of G-10 as well.

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby curlyhairedboy » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:48 am

I just hope they aren't pinned.
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mayong
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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby mayong » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:55 am

Tucson Tom wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:49 am
OK, I just have to speak my mind. I am not into this lightweight thing at all. Not even a little bit. Of the umpteen Spyderco knives I have, there is one lightweight, a Native 5 Maxamet that I bought mostly because of the steel, but also I sort of caved in to see what an FRN blade is like.

For me and my EDC cutting tasks, the FRN variants are perfectly capable. So, simply, anything more is excessive. It nets to a 15-30% price increase, more weight, and more liner to clean out compared to the G10 versions.

The game changes, of course, for different types of use. And that's the beauty of Spyderco offering both options to us. I love the Para 3 design and I'm excited to have a lightweight option for the office and the G10/full liner option for the back yard.

Do I need both? Nope. Will I have both? You bet. It's a great feeling to have the perfect tool for a task.

Tucson Tom wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:49 am
I should also point out that there isn't that much weight savings, nor do I see why a weight savings is really a concern. I was happily carrying my Manix 2 "heavy" in my pocket all day and was scarcely aware of it. I am very much the ultralight backpacker, and my linerless G10 Native (not the Maxamet, the one with S90V) is my "backpacking knife".

On weight, it's more about feel in the hand than the fractions-of-an-ounce that you save in your pocket. Saying nothing on personal preference, try doing any precision cutting with a Police 4 (which I absolutely love) and then do it again with a UKPK and feel the difference. Again, tools for the task.

tjsblade wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:25 am
I just think the G10 versions feel more solid or robust which I personally prefer. I do see the market for LWs though as they are typically a lower pricepoint when comparing the exact same model.

Price point is definitely appealing on the LW models, for sure. Sub-$100 for a para 3 is just awesome.
Police | Calypso | Caly 3 & 3.5 | PM 2 | Para 3 | UKPK | Endura | Dragonfly | Sage 2 | Sage 5

"While this test doesn't simulate any logical use of a knife as a tool, since it was a concern of some of our customers, we began incorporating it into our testing protocols." - Michael Janich

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby Vivi » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:58 am

ITT: People that don't understand an ounce of weight makes a difference when carrying a knife in running shorts while tackling mountain trails, wearing basketball shorts, in sweats / pajamas, bringing it on an ultralight backpacking trip, packing it on an ultralight bicycle tour, when you're carrying a knife in addition to a gun/light/multitool etc. and want to trim ounces where you can, or that the lower price is nice too.

I feel like we have this same discussion every month :rolleyes:

I'll take my tools as light as I can while still having them function. If Spyderco could make a 1.5oz Police, and Glock could make a 5oz 43, I'd EDC those.

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby Wartstein » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:09 am

Vivi wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:58 am
ITT: People that don't understand an ounce of weight makes a difference when carrying a knife in running shorts while tackling mountain trails, wearing basketball shorts, in sweats / pajamas, bringing it on an ultralight backpacking trip, packing it on an ultralight bicycle tour, when you're carrying a knife in addition to a gun/light/multitool etc. and want to trim ounces where you can, or that the lower price is nice too.

I feel like we have this same discussion every month :rolleyes:

I'll take my tools as light as I can while still having them function. If Spyderco could make a 1.5oz Police, and Glock could make a 5oz 43, I'd EDC those.
1.) Honestly I have no idea what "ITT" means - ? Would appreciate a short reply on that...

2-) I do myself and know literally any activity / situation you mentionend (except carrying a gun, no one does that where I live), and YES, an even slightly lighter knife is always a plus when engaging in those (activities)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby MichaelScott » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:24 am

I remember Colin Fletcher advocated cutting the handles down on toothbrushes and trimming the margins off topo maps. He wore three pound boots.

The actual importance of an ounce in hiking, backpacking and all that is vastly over rated.
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Wartstein
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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby Wartstein » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:35 am

MichaelScott wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:24 am


The actual importance of an ounce in hiking, backpacking and all that is vastly over rated.
Not in mountaineering, when you push it to the (your personal) limits, believe me... At least then it is quite important to consider every ounce that could be saved.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby Tucson Tom » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:41 pm

MichaelScott wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:24 am
I remember Colin Fletcher advocated cutting the handles down on toothbrushes and trimming the margins off topo maps. He wore three pound boots.

The actual importance of an ounce in hiking, backpacking and all that is vastly over rated.
Colin Fletcher was a bit of an odd bird, let's just leave it at that.

The thing about ounces is that one here and one there and pretty soon they add up. But this business of trimming topo maps and cutting tootbrushes gets silly. I cut the handle down on a tootbrush and carried it for a while, but it annoyed me so much I threw it away and went back to a full sized one.

As for boots, the saying is that a pound on your feet is like 10 on your back. And I absolutely believe it is true.

But when it comes to knives, it is just a matter of selecting the right knife. I won't carry my ZT 0630 on a backpacking trip. I did carry my fixed blade Spyderco Junction on my last trip and hardly noticed it. But my usual choice is the native.

When it comes to a knife on a trail run (getting back to Vivi's comment) I find it is about making a reasonable choice consistent with what clothes I am wearing. I am usually wearing some kind of cargo shorts and they will support most sensible knife choices. Actually what I often do is to use some 1 inch tubular webbing as an impromptu belt tied with a knot and add the Street Bowie and hardly notice it at all. If I was running with some elastic waist shorts I would have to pick something different (perhaps a Pacific Salt, if I still had one).

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby carrot » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:47 pm

Tucson Tom wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:41 pm
If I was running with some elastic waist shorts I would have to pick something different (perhaps a Pacific Salt, if I still had one).
For me in running shorts even a Pacific Salt is "too heavy". I carry instead a Dragonfly Salt or a Manbug Salt. A larger or heavier knife bounces around too much and gets annoying.

I also hike and backpack in running shorts. Under those circumstances I usually carry something a little beefier like a Delica but I would happily trade it for the upcoming lightweight Para 3. I also picked up a Native Salt which I can't wait to try on an upcoming trip to the Caribbean. I say, bring on the Lightweights!

In my pack I guess I could carry whatever I wanted, comfort-wise, but it's usually a Mora or Izula if I don't have any woodcraft ambitions. Big knives are HEAVY!

For daily carry i don't mind heavy knives. Right now I've been carrying the Endura SS which weighs a hefty 5.6oz!

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby mayong » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:58 pm

Vivi wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:58 am
People that don't understand an ounce of weight makes a difference when carrying a knife in running shorts while tackling mountain trails, wearing basketball shorts, in sweats / pajamas [...]

A great point. Like carrot said, more weight = more bounce, which does get annoying.
Police | Calypso | Caly 3 & 3.5 | PM 2 | Para 3 | UKPK | Endura | Dragonfly | Sage 2 | Sage 5

"While this test doesn't simulate any logical use of a knife as a tool, since it was a concern of some of our customers, we began incorporating it into our testing protocols." - Michael Janich

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby agony » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:05 pm

My running/hiking/deep-woods-multi-day-hike folder has been a Bugout. Previously an older Delica. I'm really looking forward to the LW Para 3. I'd love to see a PM2 or the Para3 LW with orange FRN scales.

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby BornIn1500 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:55 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:09 am
1.) Honestly I have no idea what "ITT" means - ? Would appreciate a short reply on that...
In This Thread

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Wartstein
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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby Wartstein » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:14 pm

BornIn1500 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:55 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:09 am
1.) Honestly I have no idea what "ITT" means - ? Would appreciate a short reply on that...
In This Thread
Thanks!
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: More on new Spyderco Light Weights: Let's discuss!

Postby Tucson Tom » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:38 am

Thinking about this a bit more -- you know most Spyderco knives are pretty light already. It seems to be part of what Spyderco strives for in design. Consider the PM2, which would be nobodies first choice for a lightweight knife, yet we have skeletonized liners and the liners tucked into the G10.

I am comparing this to some ZT knives of similar size, and those knives are like bricks. And I am not violating the silver footprints here. I am saying nothing bad about ZT -- they just design to a different style and set of goals -- and sometimes a solid heavy ZT in my hand feels really good. But the point is that for the same size knife, Spyderco is already making some very carefully considered weight / strength tradeoff decisions.

Carrying these same thoughts in a somewhat different direction, I was admiring the design of the Manix 2. Here we have stout metal liners alongside sheets of G10. Heavier than the PM2 (but not by much). I was going to say thicker, but just now holding them side by side, it isn't. Yet the Manix 2 just strikes me as a more burly knife. Well anyway, they are both admirable designs and capable of anything I will ask of them.


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