Yes, in a clinch or grappling situation, it's easier to use reverse-edge mechanics than edge out. However, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. The knife is a lethal weapon, so it should only be introduced when you're facing the threat of death or serious injury. If someone has mounted you and is bouncing your head off the sidewalk, it's definitely appropriate. If your attacker has a weapon, the knife is also appropriate, but controlling his weapon should be your highest priority. If you're trying to use the knife as a substitute for grappling skills or habitually train in a knife-versus-empty-hands mode, you might be developing habits that are inconsistent with justifiable self-defense.
Even if the situation does justify the use of the knife, you also need to be able to get it into play while managing the threat. That means applying some kind of unarmed skills while you deploy the knife and keeping your attacker from controlling it or disarming you. Once the knife is out, you also have to be able to cut or puncture something that disables your attacker and allows you to escape, all while not cutting or puncturing yourself. Blindly stabbing and hoping for the best isn't a great strategy.
We've experimented quite a bit with all of this in MBC and found that, once your on the ground, unarmed fighting (not just grappling) skills tend to take precedence.
I hope this helps.
Stay safe,
Mike
Thanks Mike for your input
The problem I foresee is that once on the ground with a better grappler who is going to break your arm in a Kimura or kill you with a Ezekiel choke. The knife might be the only option left to save your own life
When I began working with Craig on the P'Kal, his description of the situation was graphic;
"I'm working undercover narcotics. This 350 guy is 3 feet away, all coked up, and coming in for the attack. I can't get to a firearm. I have my Disciple
fixed blade on my belt angled for deployment. It will get me out of trouble".
Making a folding Disciple was suggested by a forumite on, I believe this forum. ( Might have been on Bladeforums). I'm sure one can find the original, and interesting thread discussion. Making a folding version that would be as effective to deploy as the Disciple was a challenge for sure. I worked with Craig and Trace (Rinaldi) to make sure that I had the basic pattern in a correct shape. I also had to study some Edge in techniques for a better understanding. I had first heard about Pikal (edge in) at a knife show in Texas a few years earlier and the concept was intriguing. I spoke with Laci (Szabo) about the style, and he let me in on a few advantages of the Edge-in technique.
I began working with a D'Allara folder in left hand config so the knife could be deployed from a pocket (inertia opened) and then just closing the hand around the knife had to be ready for poking. Craig, Trace and I went back and forth with plastic models for quite some time until we finalized the shape (pattern). There was mixed thought on the "Emerson opener", so I opted for a removable one. The ball lock used on the D'Allara had to be shrunk up in size so I used Eric's "caged Ball".
The only thing that Craig and Trace wanted that I didn't was the sharp butt of the Disciple. They said it had impact value, but I went with radius for capping.
It's not a volume seller. We keep it in the line for guys like Craig that it serves well. It was an interesting project because of all of the requirements that had to be fail-safe. The "Live" blade can be dangerous to train with because of the nature of "Edge-in" so we make a trainer. There were two spellings (Pikal nd Pakal) so I took the easy way out (P"kal).
We do make a few defense prone designs that we keep in the line for those that need/want such designs. While they all have their pros & cons, Mike's designs are clearly more popular. His designs are geared to his very efficient style, and Mike is very good about his training programs.
Small blades are accessed under extreme duress, in disadvantaged positions -- like grounded grapple. Confined spaces like cars and cluttered rooms
that limit mobility and escape options. Targeting specific body areas while in a grounded grapple is not easy. Thus, point driven in and ripping out with strong back muscles is robust and easy to learn.
What is difficult to learn is mental tasking in pre-assault dynamics so that we don't fall into a severe disadvantage of position and initiative. This is 'cool tool' of Craig Douglas's defensive programs.
Don't get too focused on 'edge-in; 'edge-out' or targeting. The key is robust access under in-fight duress and establishing a full fighting grip. The P'kal was designed for folks that could not legally carry a small fixed blade concealed. The blade and handle shape were 'hyper-optimized' because Spyderco was gracious and supportive to a small yet dedicated user group. Any sharp pointy thing can be used for point driven methodology.
Search up Total Protective Interactive and dig through the video forum. There will be short videos on the topic.
When I began working with Craig on the P'Kal, his description of the situation was graphic;
"I'm working undercover narcotics. This 350 guy is 3 feet away, all coked up, and coming in for the attack. I can't get to a firearm. I have my Disciple
fixed blade on my belt angled for deployment. It will get me out of trouble".
Making a folding Disciple was suggested by a forumite on, I believe this forum. ( Might have been on Bladeforums). I'm sure one can find the original, and interesting thread discussion. Making a folding version that would be as effective to deploy as the Disciple was a challenge for sure. I worked with Craig and Trace (Rinaldi) to make sure that I had the basic pattern in a correct shape. I also had to study some Edge in techniques for a better understanding. I had first heard about Pikal (edge in) at a knife show in Texas a few years earlier and the concept was intriguing. I spoke with Laci (Szabo) about the style, and he let me in on a few advantages of the Edge-in technique.
I began working with a D'Allara folder in left hand config so the knife could be deployed from a pocket (inertia opened) and then just closing the hand around the knife had to be ready for poking. Craig, Trace and I went back and forth with plastic models for quite some time until we finalized the shape (pattern). There was mixed thought on the "Emerson opener", so I opted for a removable one. The ball lock used on the D'Allara had to be shrunk up in size so I used Eric's "caged Ball".
The only thing that Craig and Trace wanted that I didn't was the sharp butt of the Disciple. They said it had impact value, but I went with radius for capping.
It's not a volume seller. We keep it in the line for guys like Craig that it serves well. It was an interesting project because of all of the requirements that had to be fail-safe. The "Live" blade can be dangerous to train with because of the nature of "Edge-in" so we make a trainer. There were two spellings (Pikal nd Pakal) so I took the easy way out (P"kal).
We do make a few defense prone designs that we keep in the line for those that need/want such designs. While they all have their pros & cons, Mike's designs are clearly more popular. His designs are geared to his very efficient style, and Mike is very good about his training programs.
sal
Sal,
Thanks for the background story on the knife ...I love hearing why a knife was designed a certain way.
Small blades are accessed under extreme duress, in disadvantaged positions -- like grounded grapple. Confined spaces like cars and cluttered rooms
that limit mobility and escape options. Targeting specific body areas while in a grounded grapple is not easy. Thus, point driven in and ripping out with strong back muscles is robust and easy to learn.
What is difficult to learn is mental tasking in pre-assault dynamics so that we don't fall into a severe disadvantage of position and initiative. This is 'cool tool' of Craig Douglas's defensive programs.
Don't get too focused on 'edge-in; 'edge-out' or targeting. The key is robust access under in-fight duress and establishing a full fighting grip. The P'kal was designed for folks that could not legally carry a small fixed blade concealed. The blade and handle shape were 'hyper-optimized' because Spyderco was gracious and supportive to a small yet dedicated user group. Any sharp pointy thing can be used for point driven methodology.
Search up Total Protective Interactive and dig through the video forum. There will be short videos on the topic.
Mr.Janich,
Do you ever see having an instructor in either North Carolina or Tennessee? Thank you.
Dear MacLaren:
Thank you for your question and your interest in MBC.
Unfortunately, there's not much I can do to control where motivated MBCers come from. The development and growth of the MBC family is purely organic. While I'd love to have representation everywhere so instruction is readily available to all interested, quality is better than quantity. With that said, please feel free to PM or e-mail me at info@martialbladeconcepts.com. There are other resources available that might help you find an MBC training partner.
Mr.Janich,
Do you ever see having an instructor in either North Carolina or Tennessee? Thank you.
Dear MacLaren:
Thank you for your question and your interest in MBC.
Unfortunately, there's not much I can do to control where motivated MBCers come from. The development and growth of the MBC family is purely organic. While I'd love to have representation everywhere so instruction is readily available to all interested, quality is better than quantity. With that said, please feel free to PM or e-mail me at info@martialbladeconcepts.com. There are other resources available that might help you find an MBC training partner.
Maybe Janich and Douglas can create a new grappling program involving MBC.
Using a smaller more edc friendly version of the reverse
Shivworks developed one, the CLINCH PITCH
Marius
" A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it "
( Rabindranath Tagore ) Proud member of the old school spyderedge nation
It's been a few years back but back around 2008-2009 I believe it was the Honorable Dr. Hannibal Lecter M.D. who doesn't chime in as much as he used to that showed me an MBC blade video of the proper usage of MBC rated blades and if my memory isn't in the gutter I believe the P'Kal might have had a spot in that video if I remember correctly.
That MBC video I believe also had the GUNTING model included in it as well as the TEMPERANCE 1 and all the other Spyders that also had trainers made for them. But it's been a while since I seen that video and if the good Doctor chimes in soon I'll ask him about it. He was really getting into Karambits during that time period as well as his huge selection of plain edged Hawkbills that he acquired over the years.
The P'Kal hadn't been out all that long when they made that video. I think the Good Doctor told me that he got it from SFO if I remember correctly. I'll try to track him down and see if I can get the straight scoop on that one. Also they were having MBC classes somewhere at that time too.
