Any books or videos on using the spyderco p’kal

[Blue72]

I have done several courses on MBC. I am now interested in P'kal reverse edge in techniques like those taught by shivworks.

I would like to get some books or videos before actually taking some classes. But the only ones I found, are short videos on youtube

[The Deacon]

Found this short YouTube video from Shivworks. They're the folks who designed the P'kal.

https://youtu.be/e-p4YmUJ4PA

[Blue72]

Found this short YouTube video from Shivworks. They're the folks who designed the P'kal.

https://youtu.be/e-p4YmUJ4PA

.

Thanks Deacon, that was the video that peaked my interest

I would love to learn more...and see how compatible it is with mbc




.

[Dodge]

It was a collab with Craig Douglas aka Southnarc, he has lots of YouTube videos. I thought there was a shivworks training video at some point on their site? One of my favorite back up blades is an original Lil’ Loco from them.

It appears he does training on EWO and sells the p’kal on the SPG site.

http://shivworks.com

Might I also suggest you look into libre fighting systems, Scott and Ed do a bunch of reverse edge methodology training and videos.

[ZrowsN1s]

From my limited experience, the strategies of MBC/CBC don't work as well with reverse edge in grips/knives. REI techniques are definitely a tool to add to your skill set though. I own a p'kal and can tell you it is a very well made knife.

I wish that spyderco would have made a version with the handle facing the other way, like the fixed blade 'Reverse'. That would work great for MBC/CBC especially with the wave.

[elena86]

I wouldn't rate P'kal as a self defense knife ... it's more of a go-for-the-kill knife so to speak.

[JD Spydo]

The P'Kal is another great Spyderco folder that I would have love to have tried in Spyderedge. Even it's fixed blade brother the REVERSE I think also would have been interesting in SE. The P'Kal has sure been around a lot longer than I thought it would be>> especially for the very small fan base it has. I remember many more people liking the GUNTING far better for a specialty SD blade.

[Dodge]

Serrated self defense knives get snagged on things.

[Blue72]

From my limited experience, the strategies of MBC/CBC don't work as well with reverse edge in grips/knives......

.

Why not? With MBC your basically targeting biceps, triceps,quadriceps, etc... Reverse edge in, is very fast in attacking those targets multiple times. Especially in a clinch or grappling situation



.

[Dodge]

From my limited experience, the strategies of MBC/CBC don't work as well with reverse edge in grips/knives......

Why not? With MBC your basically targeting biceps, triceps,quadriceps, etc... Reverse edge in, is very fast in attacking those targets multiple times. Especially in a clinch or grappling situation

https://youtu.be/TzjnouaKFAA

[ZrowsN1s]

When I was talking about cbc/mbc I was speaking specifically about M. Janich's videos/lectures. The biceps and quadriceps targeting that I learned from his advanced CBC vid series utilized a standard grip. I know he does reverse edge out grip as well in his MBC vids. But he did not use any REI techniques as far as I know (I own the cbc/cbc advanced vids but have not seen all of the MBC vids).

This is not to say there aren't other systems out there that use biceps targeting that work with REI grips, I just don't think it's a good fit for the counter blade concepts techniques.

[Naperville]

I have done several courses on MBC. I am now interested in P'kal reverse edge in techniques like those taught by shivworks.

I would like to get some books or videos before actually taking some classes. But the only ones I found, are short videos on youtube

Where do you live? I may be able to recommend some instructors, OR you can always join MyFMA.net and inquire. I use to be an admin on that site and it is chock full of people who can make recommendations, plus there is a School List.

They can also make recommendations on what videos might be available.

I RECOMMEND:

The MBC / Janich site has at least 5 videos on it available for purchase.

I also recommend the Dog Brothers website for disarming videos. The 3 video series is called, "Die Less Often."

I also recommend GM Tim Waid's, PTK - SMF DVDs.

I've studied at least 10+ martial arts, 5+ of them Filipino, but most schools do not sell videos or sell them to people that they do not know. It's a hassle, because I cannot even get videos that easily from people that I have trained with unless I go back in to training full-time.

[Blue72]

I have done several courses on MBC. I am now interested in P'kal reverse edge in techniques like those taught by shivworks.

I would like to get some books or videos before actually taking some classes. But the only ones I found, are short videos on youtube

Where do you live? I may be able to recommend some instructors, OR you can always join MyFMA.net and inquire. I use to be an admin on that site and it is chock full of people who can make recommendations, plus there is a School List.

They can also make recommendations on what videos might be available.

I RECOMMEND:

The MBC / Janich site has at least 5 videos on it available for purchase.

I also recommend the Dog Brothers website for disarming videos. The 3 video series is called, "Die Less Often."

I also recommend GM Tim Waid's, PTK - SMF DVDs.

I've studied at least 10+ martial arts, 5+ of them Filipino, but most schools do not sell videos or sell them to people that they do not know. It's a hassle, because I cannot even get videos that easily from people that I have trained with unless I go back in to training full-time.

I wanted to see a book or video before committing to live training

I have taken various courses and many were not what I was looking for. So before wasting anyone’s time, I just like to learn more about shivworks pkal or clinch pick techniques before taking a course

[Naperville]

I have done several courses on MBC. I am now interested in P'kal reverse edge in techniques like those taught by shivworks.

I would like to get some books or videos before actually taking some classes. But the only ones I found, are short videos on youtube

Where do you live? I may be able to recommend some instructors, OR you can always join MyFMA.net and inquire. I use to be an admin on that site and it is chock full of people who can make recommendations, plus there is a School List.

They can also make recommendations on what videos might be available.

I RECOMMEND:

The MBC / Janich site has at least 5 videos on it available for purchase.

I also recommend the Dog Brothers website for disarming videos. The 3 video series is called, "Die Less Often."

I also recommend GM Tim Waid's, PTK - SMF DVDs.

I've studied at least 10+ martial arts, 5+ of them Filipino, but most schools do not sell videos or sell them to people that they do not know. It's a hassle, because I cannot even get videos that easily from people that I have trained with unless I go back in to training full-time.

I wanted to see a book or video before committing to live training

I have taken various courses and many were not what I was looking for. So before wasting anyone’s time, I just like to learn more about shivworks pkal or clinch pick techniques

OK, just let me say a few things.

Video tape what you learn by doing it in front of a camera and then go through it and tear it up until you get it down as near perfect as possible. Get down the speed and targets. You can even study basic anatomy.

There is a book by Janich on Knife Targeting that you can get from Amazon, and it is the best book I've seen on the topic.

Martial Arts and Tactical Training back 30 years ago was very different. People were told by instructors not to train outside of their schools. Now it's completely different and people train where they can find training and mix it up with a number of techniques and instructors.

Most people have come to realize that they cannot do everything their instructors do and the more that they have seen, usually something clicks. Things taught earlier may make sense, or maybe a new technique works for the participant/student because the teacher is of the same body type or physical capabilities.

[Naperville]

Contemporary Knife Targeting. By: Grosz and Janich

[Blue72]

Contemporary Knife Targeting. By: Grosz and Janich

Thanks, but like I said. I’m already familiar with MBC

Looking for shivworks methods

[Michael Janich]

Hey, All:

Thank you for this discussion.

I've had the honor of knowing Craig for many years and have taught with him a few times at the NE Shooters summit. He is an outstanding trainer and I respect him highly.

At the same time, he and I take a very different approach to knife tactics, while remaining good friends. That's exactly what inspired the Reverse project (well, that and an enthusiastic night of drinking).

Craig's approach to knife tactics is best understood by attending one of his seminars. He has produced two DVDs on his knife system, which are available here: http://www.ccdefense.com/shivworks-dvd/. The DVDs have been around a while and include a lot of instructional material outside the realm of knife tactics, but they are still good insights into Craig's approach.

For the record, MBC and my approach to knife skills focus on a pure self-defense context and the idea of rapidly disabling an attacker to create an opportunity to escape. I have experimented a lot with reverse-edge tactics and, while I agree that they are mechanically very powerful and can create some devastating wounds, they don't allow me to focus on the targets that I feel are best suited to quickly disabling an attacker. My approach to targeting takes the tame-tested concept of "defanging the snake" and expands it to include both other muscle and tendon groups and peripheral nerves. The goal is to create reliable, predictable physiological effects that disable instantly and can be performed with short-bladed knives that are legal to carry. Thus far, I haven't found reverse-edge tactics that allow me to do that as efficiently as edge-out skills--but I keep exploring and do my best to remain open minded.

Thanks again for a great discussion. Please keep it going.

Stay safe,

Mike

[MacLaren]

Mr.Janich,
Do you ever see having an instructor in either North Carolina or Tennessee? Thank you.

[Blue72]

Hey, All:

Thank you for this discussion.

I've had the honor of knowing Craig for many years and have taught with him a few times at the NE Shooters summit. He is an outstanding trainer and I respect him highly.

At the same time, he and I take a very different approach to knife tactics, while remaining good friends. That's exactly what inspired the Reverse project (well, that and an enthusiastic night of drinking).

Craig's approach to knife tactics is best understood by attending one of his seminars. He has produced two DVDs on his knife system, which are available here: http://www.ccdefense.com/shivworks-dvd/. The DVDs have been around a while and include a lot of instructional material outside the realm of knife tactics, but they are still good insights into Craig's approach.

For the record, MBC and my approach to knife skills focus on a pure self-defense context and the idea of rapidly disabling an attacker to create an opportunity to escape. I have experimented a lot with reverse-edge tactics and, while I agree that they are mechanically very powerful and can create some devastating wounds, they don't allow me to focus on the targets that I feel are best suited to quickly disabling an attacker. My approach to targeting takes the tame-tested concept of "defanging the snake" and expands it to include both other muscle and tendon groups and peripheral nerves. The goal is to create reliable, predictable physiological effects that disable instantly and can be performed with short-bladed knives that are legal to carry. Thus far, I haven't found reverse-edge tactics that allow me to do that as efficiently as edge-out skills--but I keep exploring and do my best to remain open minded.

Thanks again for a great discussion. Please keep it going.

Stay safe,

Mike

Mr. Janich, it’s an honor to have you involved in this discussion

As a former student of MBC. I agree that reverse edge in, is not the most efficient method for the targets you aim for.

However, as a student of wrestling and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. In many clinch situations wether standing or on the ground. I find I am extremely limited in movement to carry out the things I learned in MBC. In these very tight situations where movement is limited due to my opponents skilled control of me. I find the back muscle power to be an advantage with reverse edge in to be beneficial in the limited space I can work with..

Hence the reason I’m looking to explore more about shivworks techniques, unless you think I need to advance my limited mbc to handle these clinch situations better.

Any feedback be greatly appreciated

P.S. thanks for the links of the DVD'sr

[Michael Janich]

Dear dd61999:

Thank you for your kind words.

Yes, in a clinch or grappling situation, it's easier to use reverse-edge mechanics than edge out. However, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. The knife is a lethal weapon, so it should only be introduced when you're facing the threat of death or serious injury. If someone has mounted you and is bouncing your head off the sidewalk, it's definitely appropriate. If your attacker has a weapon, the knife is also appropriate, but controlling his weapon should be your highest priority. If you're trying to use the knife as a substitute for grappling skills or habitually train in a knife-versus-empty-hands mode, you might be developing habits that are inconsistent with justifiable self-defense.

Even if the situation does justify the use of the knife, you also need to be able to get it into play while managing the threat. That means applying some kind of unarmed skills while you deploy the knife and keeping your attacker from controlling it or disarming you. Once the knife is out, you also have to be able to cut or puncture something that disables your attacker and allows you to escape, all while not cutting or puncturing yourself. Blindly stabbing and hoping for the best isn't a great strategy.

We've experimented quite a bit with all of this in MBC and found that, once your on the ground, unarmed fighting (not just grappling) skills tend to take precedence.

I hope this helps.

Stay safe,

Mike