Who's for replacing ZDP-189 with HAP40 laminate in regular production?

[Albatross]

Having both in regular production would be the best scenario. I would also like to see V-toku2 added to that list, but 5 steels(counting VG10 and H1) might be asking for too much. :D

OK, I must have missed that - that's useful information.

My sharpening skills are limited. I have a Sharpmaker, with the standard brown and white rods. If I can't sharpen a knife with this, I should get out the knife hobby and take up fishing - which I might not be any more successful at, but which will keep my stress level much lower.

That's plenty to keep Hap40 sharp. I use bench stones, but every once in a while, enjoy going back to the Sharpmaker for casual sharpenings. I did this with a Delica in Hap40; I found that it sharpened fairly easily and took a very fine edge. It's an increase in edge retention over VG10 and an increase in sharpening time, but not an increase in sharpening difficulty. Hap40 WANTS to get ridiculously sharp.

[Fred Sanford]

Has something changed?

If I remember correctly, ZDP holds an edge longer than HAP40. It is also more corrosion resistant. ZDP is a heck of a good steel; much more so than most folks think. HAP40 can take a backseat.

[GarageBoy]

People like the ease of sharpening, I guess?

[rabbitanarchy14]

i am down for this but change the handle to a better color like the green the zdp comes with now or just black even. not yellow or orange and i would be interested. i would even carry it in hot pink.

[youmakemehole]

The edge retention of ZDP really is far superior to HAP40 - the only steels from Spyderco that can match or beat it in terms of edge retention are Maxamet, S110V, REX45, and on a good day, with the best HT and geometry, possibly M390 and S90V as well. Out of those listed, the most similar performing one in terms of edge performance is REX45. Now thats a little interesting, because REX45 is nearly the same as Hitachi HAP40, just made from a different company with a different heat treat.

Note that after comparing edge retention, the superiority of ZDP starts taking backseat to HAP40 in terms of all other qualities you would want from a steel. 2 notable ways HAP 40 is better are its very impressive resistance to chipping and its (relative) ease of sharpening. My ZDP and HAP40 knives both are all eventually reprofiled to<15º per side. I'd imagine anyone with the ability to do this would also do the same as well, since this is how one would extract the highest level of cutting ability from these high performance steels. With these angles though, chances of chipping become quite real whenever the knives are faced with tasks that apply any heavy directional force on the edge –things like cutting thick hard plastic, dense wood, metal, etc. HAP40 has proved itself to hold up quite well in these situations, quite impressively might I even say, while ZDP just sort of loses all composure during these and surpises you with little missing bits of edge after you take a closer look at it after. Now in the rare case of HAP40 chipping, sharpening it back is very easy considering how solid of a performer it is and also its hardness. I'd say the difficulty is even easier than XHP, and approaches S30V, probably somewhere in between those 2 steels. The steel is also very pure and fine, so the sharpening feel is very smooth and consistent, really not an unpleasant task by any relative means.

ZDP, on the other hand, being so prone to chipping, will need to be touched up or even reground often if you are utilizing the knife in a general purpose, all round use sort of fashion. Sharpening ZDP is a PAIN!! If you do not have diamond or CBN, forget about it... well, sintered ruby works very well too if the the damage is not too severe, sintered rubies IMO are superior to diamond in many ways... imagine the smoothness of ceramic with the cutting power of diamond...sintered ruby is the best kept secret in the knife sharpening world and they can be had for cents on the dollar compared to similar performing diamond/cbn alternatives. That is a totally separate topic in itself, however, if you'd like to try them out, they are well worth your time and investment –there is a set of small ruby rods on Amazon for ~$20, ranging from 2mm to 10mm, as well as a good variety of 2 sided pocket stones for $10-$15. They are so cheap you would really not be losing much if for some strange reason you decide you do not like them. Highly unlikely to happen though IMO. I highly reccoment the ruby rod set, they are the best thing for serrations ever, but obviously not just limited to that. Anyways, back to the subject, the poor toughness of ZDP not only presents the aforementioned problems, it also just makes it an impractical steel for any thing larger/built for harder use. Say for the Manix 2 for example, if it was made in ZDP, the fact it is using such a steel would limit the practical uses that would contribute to the reasons for getting such a knife int he first place. A Manix in HAP40 though, would just be plain baller any way you look at it. I remember seeing this youtube video once where this guy takes 3-4 brand new Spyderco ZDP folders in different models and does something to them along the lines of whipping the blade forcefully open/closed or smacking the spine against a surface (i forget what it was exactly), and it caused them to fracture and fail the first time for every one of those knives, the locking mechanism no longer worked after it was done.

So as far as production goes, it would obviously be the best for Spyderco as well as their customers to see that a practical well rounded steel is used. The reason why I mentioned the similar edge retention of REX45 earlier was because, if somehow Spyderco is able to get their HAP40 treated to the performance level of REX45 in Japan, there would then really be no reason at all to desire ZDP over HAP40, since HAP40 would then be better in every way. However, even if this never becomes feasible, my opinion is that HAP40 is still just a way better option for regular production as ZDP's practicality is just far too limited when considered as an alternative.

[BigKenbo]

The edge retention of ZDP really is far superior to HAP40 - the only steels from Spyderco that can match or beat it in terms of edge retention are Maxamet, S110V, REX45, and on a good day, with the best HT and geometry, possibly M390 and S90V as well. Out of those listed, the most similar performing one in terms of edge performance is REX45. Now thats a little interesting, because REX45 is nearly the same as Hitachi HAP40, just made from a different company with a different heat treat.

Note that after comparing edge retention, the superiority of ZDP starts taking backseat to HAP40 in terms of all other qualities you would want from a steel. 2 notable ways HAP 40 is better are its very impressive resistance to chipping and its (relative) ease of sharpening. My ZDP and HAP40 knives both are all eventually reprofiled to<15º per side. I'd imagine anyone with the ability to do this would also do the same as well, since this is how one would extract the highest level of cutting ability from these high performance steels. With these angles though, chances of chipping become quite real whenever the knives are faced with tasks that apply any heavy directional force on the edge –things like cutting thick hard plastic, dense wood, metal, etc. HAP40 has proved itself to hold up quite well in these situations, quite impressively might I even say, while ZDP just sort of loses all composure during these and surpises you with little missing bits of edge after you take a closer look at it after. Now in the rare case of HAP40 chipping, sharpening it back is very easy considering how solid of a performer it is and also its hardness. I'd say the difficulty is even easier than XHP, and approaches S30V, probably somewhere in between those 2 steels. The steel is also very pure and fine, so the sharpening feel is very smooth and consistent, really not an unpleasant task by any relative means.

ZDP, on the other hand, being so prone to chipping, will need to be touched up or even reground often if you are utilizing the knife in a general purpose, all round use sort of fashion. Sharpening ZDP is a PAIN!! If you do not have diamond or CBN, forget about it... well, sintered ruby works very well too if the the damage is not too severe, sintered rubies IMO are superior to diamond in many ways... imagine the smoothness of ceramic with the cutting power of diamond...sintered ruby is the best kept secret in the knife sharpening world and they can be had for cents on the dollar compared to similar performing diamond/cbn alternatives. That is a totally separate topic in itself, however, if you'd like to try them out, they are well worth your time and investment –there is a set of small ruby rods on Amazon for ~$20, ranging from 2mm to 10mm, as well as a good variety of 2 sided pocket stones for $10-$15. They are so cheap you would really not be losing much if for some strange reason you decide you do not like them. Highly unlikely to happen though IMO. I highly reccoment the ruby rod set, they are the best thing for serrations ever, but obviously not just limited to that. Anyways, back to the subject, the poor toughness of ZDP not only presents the aforementioned problems, it also just makes it an impractical steel for any thing larger/built for harder use. Say for the Manix 2 for example, if it was made in ZDP, the fact it is using such a steel would limit the practical uses that would contribute to the reasons for getting such a knife int he first place. A Manix in HAP40 though, would just be plain baller any way you look at it. I remember seeing this youtube video once where this guy takes 3-4 brand new Spyderco ZDP folders in different models and does something to them along the lines of whipping the blade forcefully open/closed or smacking the spine against a surface (i forget what it was exactly), and it caused them to fracture and fail the first time for every one of those knives, the locking mechanism no longer worked after it was done.

So as far as production goes, it would obviously be the best for Spyderco as well as their customers to see that a practical well rounded steel is used. The reason why I mentioned the similar edge retention of REX45 earlier was because, if somehow Spyderco is able to get their HAP40 treated to the performance level of REX45 in Japan, there would then really be no reason at all to desire ZDP over HAP40, since HAP40 would then be better in every way. However, even if this never becomes feasible, my opinion is that HAP40 is just a way better option for regular production as ZDP's practicality is just far too limited when considered as an alternative.

I have not noticed any issue from either steel. The HAP40 seems a touch easier to sharpen, but i carry both every day, have sharpened them both several times, and have no complaints about either. I think they reside in different categories. The HAP40 IS easier to sharpen. The ZDP-189 edge lasts longer. The ZDP is uncladded. The ZDP is more stain-free. Yeah we are splitting hairs here (pun intended) but aside from both being Japanese origin, they are enough different, that i am very pleased to own both, and believe they can co-exist.. And that they should.

[youmakemehole]

I have not noticed any issue from either steel. The HAP40 seems a touch easier to sharpen, but i carry both every day, have sharpened them both several times, and have no complaints about either. I think they reside in different categories. The HAP40 IS easier to sharpen. The ZDP-189 edge lasts longer. The ZDP is uncladded. The ZDP is more stain-free. Yeah we are splitting hairs here (pun intended) but aside from both being Japanese origin, they are enough different, that i am very pleased to own both, and believe they can co-exist.. And that they should.

They do coexist now, but the issue being discussed here is whether or not HAP40 should take the spot of ZDP for regular production instead of being limited to only being a sprint run steel. Obviously if we could have regular production in both, that would be the best case scenario, I really like ZDP as well, but the hypothetical here is that Spyderco would only be able to make one of them feasible as a regular production steel. Whether that is the case, or whether Spyderco is even able to switch the roles of ZDP and HAP40, is probably not something anyone here knows unless they work for Spyderco. Really this is a silly exchange of hypothetical ideas based off a what-if situation that may or may not exist, but I guess it seems reasonable enough for some to entertain it :rolleyes:

[bigboned]

id rather they just changed the green scales for zdp - they are nasty!