point durability on Military?

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Evil D
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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby Evil D » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:42 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:42 am
Bloke wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:24 pm
I think the fine splinter probe tip is one of the most desirable features of the Military and certainly durable enough for my need. :)
Agreed, a fine tip can be a good feature, but what's the point / advantage in making the rest of the blade that thick and sturdy then?

Maybe the simplest answer is a wider lock face for the liner lock. You'd have a lot less travel space worth a 2mm blade. It also makes a more versatile knife overall that can do heavy and detailed work. It just isn't suited to pry or be used as a screwdriver.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Wartstein
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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:05 am

Evil D wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:42 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:42 am
Bloke wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:24 pm
I think the fine splinter probe tip is one of the most desirable features of the Military and certainly durable enough for my need. :)
Agreed, a fine tip can be a good feature, but what's the point / advantage in making the rest of the blade that thick and sturdy then?

Maybe the simplest answer is a wider lock face for the liner lock. You'd have a lot less travel space worth a 2mm blade. It also makes a more versatile knife overall that can do heavy and detailed work. It just isn't suited to pry or be used as a screwdriver.
The lock face argument is a very good one, and one I did never think of. Most likely also true for PM2 / Para 3 and the comp. lock. And maybe that (the increased lock face) actually IS the main reason for the "military family" having rather thick blade stock?!

For the Millie has a stock of 3.7 mm. 2 mm, as you mentioned, would be rather thin for heavy work, but I can't imagine that 3mm (so like on the Endura, and not 3.7 as on the Millie) could not take any hard use you would do with a Millie or PM2...(taking lateral forces and the like. As soon as the rather fine tip is involved, that would limit the amount of lateral forces one can safely apply to the Millie anyway by a lot).
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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anycal
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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby anycal » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:14 am

entertainment. tip test @3:54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MxCDbAW638
Peter

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Evil D
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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby Evil D » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:33 am

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:05 am
Evil D wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:42 am
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:42 am
Bloke wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:24 pm
I think the fine splinter probe tip is one of the most desirable features of the Military and certainly durable enough for my need. :)
Agreed, a fine tip can be a good feature, but what's the point / advantage in making the rest of the blade that thick and sturdy then?

Maybe the simplest answer is a wider lock face for the liner lock. You'd have a lot less travel space worth a 2mm blade. It also makes a more versatile knife overall that can do heavy and detailed work. It just isn't suited to pry or be used as a screwdriver.
The lock face argument is a very good one, and one I did never think of. Most likely also true for PM2 / Para 3 and the comp. lock. And maybe that (the increased lock face) actually IS the main reason for the "military family" having rather thick blade stock?!

For the Millie has a stock of 3.7 mm. 2 mm, as you mentioned, would be rather thin for heavy work, but I can't imagine that 3mm (so like on the Endura, and not 3.7 as on the Millie) could not take any hard use you would do with a Millie or PM2...(taking lateral forces and the like. As soon as the rather fine tip is involved, that would limit the amount of lateral forces one can safely apply to the Millie anyway by a lot).

I think 3mm is a sweet spot, depending on overall length. The Manix 2 is 3mm and I've beat those without mercy but they're also a bit shorter so the amount of leverage you can apply is mechanically less. I'd imagine you could do a 1.5mm blade on a Manix 2 and the lock would still accommodate it.

You could also make an argument for just grinding the blade thinner from the same 4mm stock. Then you have your thick lock face and thin blade but I'm not sure that'll work in full production, it also wastes a lot of steel.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Catamount123
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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby Catamount123 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:20 pm

Question; since the Milli is, and has been, available in a number of different steels, does the steel (and particularly it's toughness) make much real world difference in the durability of the tip?
I don't get people who only carry one knife :confused: ;)

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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby dogrunner » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:57 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:42 am
Bloke wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:24 pm
I think the fine splinter probe tip is one of the most desirable features of the Military and certainly durable enough for my need. :)
Agreed, a fine tip can be a good feature, but what's the point / advantage in making the rest of the blade that thick and sturdy then?
I think this question answers itself!
I use the tip a lot for drilling in wood fence posts to start lag screws and to make clean round holes in plastic. The Mili works great for this. At the same time the blade is long enough for most any cutting chore that does not need a chef's knife, the thickish (4 mm is not really that thick at the spine) provides overall blade strength, while the full flat grind to a thinnish edge makes it a great cutter.
This is one of, if not the best blades I have ever used as an all-purpose blade. Acute tip, strong blade, sufficient length, good cutting geometry.

As to the O.P.s original question, the only tip I have broken was when I dropped my PM1 on a hardwood floor and it "stuck" the landing. Better than in my foot! Just lucky I guess, because I have had many opportunities to drop my knives on concrete floors or rocks, and so far haven't.

I like the rounder points on the D4, E4, and GB1/2, but still prefer the Mili or PM2 most of the time.

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Wartstein
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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby Wartstein » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:35 pm

dogrunner wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:57 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:42 am
Bloke wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:24 pm
I think the fine splinter probe tip is one of the most desirable features of the Military and certainly durable enough for my need. :)
Agreed, a fine tip can be a good feature, but what's the point / advantage in making the rest of the blade that thick and sturdy then?
I think this question answers itself!
I use the tip a lot for drilling in wood fence posts to start lag screws and to make clean round holes in plastic. The Mili works great for this. At the same time the blade is long enough for most any cutting chore that does not need a chef's knife, the thickish (4 mm is not really that thick at the spine) provides overall blade strength, while the full flat grind to a thinnish edge makes it a great cutter.
This is one of, if not the best blades I have ever used as an all-purpose blade. Acute tip, strong blade, sufficient length, good cutting geometry.
Thanx for your reply, you obviously have a lot more real-use-experience with your Military than I have with mine (carry it very rarely) and that's what counts.

My question was more from a theoretical standpoint: I thought, if one really makes (hard) use of a rather thick blade, often times the point will be involved and should be thus stouter. Otherwise 3 mm (and not almost 4 like on the Military) would be plenty strong enough for almost any folder blade.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Bloke
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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby Bloke » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:44 am

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:19 pm
Could it pierce the hide of a saltie or a white pointer or bull shark without breaking? Or would you recommend a Saber Grind Endura 4?
SEF, those are three ornery apex predators best given a wide berth and probably shouldn’t be poked with knives or sticks. But, ay I could be wrong. :)

Come visit mate, bring your favourite knife with a stout tip. I’ll give you a fresh sharpened Military and you can do some real world comparisons while I’ll film it all. ;)
Pelagic wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:28 pm
If I lived in Australia I'd want one of the stabbiest, pokiest knives on Earth too! There's more animals that can kill you on that island than Spyderco has knives!
Ah, hahaha! :)

You’d be right Hitch! Unless of coarse you wanted to check your Military’s tip strength by poking our Handbags and Noah’s Arks with it. :eek:
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:42 am
Agreed, a fine tip can be a good feature, but what's the point / advantage in making the rest of the blade that thick and sturdy then?
Hey Gernot, the Military is my favourite large folder for many reasons.It combines the fine tipped (long?) blade with beefy strong blade stock and ample handle which I feel gives plenty of purchase and allows for serious cutting tasks towards the heel of the blade.

The more I use a Military the more I like it and if I ever snap a tip off it’ll be my own fault and not the knives design. :)
A day without laughter is a day wasted. ~ Charlie Chaplin

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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby Wartstein » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:18 am

Bloke wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:44 am

Hey Gernot, the Military is my favourite large folder for many reasons.It combines the fine tipped (long?) blade with beefy strong blade stock and ample handle which I feel gives plenty of purchase and allows for serious cutting tasks towards the heel of the blade.

The more I use a Military the more I like it and if I ever snap a tip off it’ll be my own fault and not the knives design. :)
Hi mate, thanx for your reply! As I already stated in a post above: What counts, is real use (and not theoretical concerns), and that is where you obviously have way more experience with your Military than I have with mine. I use mine very seldom and prefer the Endura for the longest folder I carry (actually, the edge length of Endura and Military are not too far apart, but in pocket the Endura carries noticeable smaller. The ergos on the Mili are even better though, I have to admit).

Maybe it is just the theoretical concept that I do not like on the Military, regardless if it has consequences in real use or not: On a stout and thick folder I just want to see an also stout and thick tip. Perfect example for what I mean would be the Shaman.
Last edited by Wartstein on Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:13 am

The only tip I ever had break was on a Para3 S30V inside of a double walled card board box for no apparent reason. There was nothing it should have been able to come in contact with.

If you can try to get a M4 MIlitary or one in CTS204P which is identical to M390 and should be less expensive than M390 as most people do not seem to know of it's make up.

I dropped a CTS204P MIilitary and when it hit it bounced and the blade opened and the tip hit the tile floor no damage to the Tip and just a slight mark on the G-10
I have spoken. :)

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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby Wartstein » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:41 am

I only once had a tip broken, and that was on a fixed blade in N690.

Though a broken tip can be easily restored, I'd hate to break one even if only the last tiny bit especially on a folder. Not because a restored tip wouldn't work fine (it does), but cause I am little "nerdy" when it comes to blade length (edge length) to handle ratio: A broken tip, restored or not, makes the blade shorter. And I just like to see that the blade is as long as possible and fills as much of the handle as possible when the knife is closed. Often times for no practical reasons, I just like that design- and conceptwise and it looks better to me.

My main concern when a knife sharpens away over time is not that the blade looses height, but length.
And my main "complaint" concerning Delica, Stretch 2... is that the blades could be longer going by the space the handles offer.

Just me. And a little "nerdy" as already stated... ;)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby lonerider1013 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:38 am

Good to know it's probably good for my use then! To be fair I think I've only ever bent one knife point and that was as a stupid teenager and cheapo knife.

Regarding the 20 years thing I had no idea this knife had been out for that long!
BTW I'm lefty and carry the right hand model in my left pocket. It just comes out reversed but is easy to open regardless. I do wish it had a reversible clip but beyond that no problem with the lock, the handle is long enuff to get my finger out of the way when unlocking it lefty. While an updated lock mech would be nice... i kind of like that the knife despite its size and quality is simple.
lonerider
"A fool's blade may be sharper than his brain"
“Learn to ride a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." - Mark Twain

Catamount123
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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby Catamount123 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:52 am

lonerider1013 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:38 am
BTW I'm lefty...

Are you aware that they make a left-handed version of the Milli?
Last edited by Catamount123 on Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don't get people who only carry one knife :confused: ;)

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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby Catamount123 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:53 am

Double post, sorry.
I don't get people who only carry one knife :confused: ;)

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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby lonerider1013 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:18 am

Catamount123 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:52 am
lonerider1013 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:38 am
BTW I'm lefty...

Are you aware that they make a left-handed version of the Milli?
Yeh but wanted to use the standard.

Lonerider
"A fool's blade may be sharper than his brain"
“Learn to ride a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." - Mark Twain

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Wartstein
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Re: point durability on Military?

Postby Wartstein » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:04 pm

lonerider1013 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:38 am
Good to know it's probably good for my use then! To be fair I think I've only ever bent one knife point and that was as a stupid teenager and cheapo knife.

Regarding the 20 years thing I had no idea this knife had been out for that long!
BTW I'm lefty and carry the right hand model in my left pocket. It just comes out reversed but is easy to open regardless. I do wish it had a reversible clip but beyond that no problem with the lock, the handle is long enuff to get my finger out of the way when unlocking it lefty. While an updated lock mech would be nice... i kind of like that the knife despite its size and quality is simple.
lonerider
You made me remember, that maybe the first "spyderco-lore" I ever heard was how Sal was asked what a knife for his son, if he (the son) was in the Military, should look like, and Sal designed the Mili... the story is even cited in the catalog and it´s a nice one :)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40


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