Spyderco Forums

There has been a lot of discussion on YouTube lately about Rockwell hardness of production knives. A hero out there named Kurt (Curt?) has been doing Rockwell testing for a number of youtubers. Steels from Spyderco like REX45 and K390 have been earning high praise for scoring in the upper limits of their hardness range. Disappointingly steels like s30v and m390 have been scoring at the low end of their range. The question is why isn't Spyderco pushing the limits for their base model steels, since we know they are capable and willing to do so with others?

This is a complex and nuisanced question of course, but I think we are feeling the effects of Spyderco's s30v being labeled "chippy" in the past. I think it was a baseless claim, but it stuck and was widely circulated. I have to imagine it hurt sales, and their image overall. I think companies now are scared of the same thing happening to them, so they are being extra conservative with the heat treats of s30v, s35vn, and m390 variants. M390 has mass appeal, and having your m390 known for being chippy would be bad. Better an underperforming steel in the hands of customers you know the majority of will only be lightly using their knives is a safer bet.

So stop it with the chippy, I don't want to hear it.

One man’s chippy steel is another man’s high hardness true love.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't...welcome to business!

I think a very large percentage of "chip issues" are the result of "burr issues", and I'm also speaking from past (novice) experience.

SF Native wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:09 pm

One man’s chippy steel is another man’s high hardness true love.

Good point, but I don't think that high hardness necessarily correlates with chippyness. A lot of time the harder a steel gets the greater it's edge stability gets. Who wants a soft steel that rolls easily? I think maximizing resistance to deformation of any sort would be preferable.

Evil D wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:38 pm

I think a very large percentage of "chip issues" are the result of "burr issues", and I'm also speaking from past (novice) experience.

I agree, or some other form of user error, whether in sharpening or in use. On occasion the "burnt" factory edge may to blame, but softer steel doesn't really remedy that problem.

I think the hardening formula ends up having to serve the least nuanced of users- those who pry, tweak, and twist. All while knowing there's another group of users who are able to squawk about any problems they find to YouTube, it must be somewhat unnerving to be selling high end cutlery to a bunch of cave people.

I like to understand the steel and know the limits of each formulation. If the formulas get "minimized", rather than maximized for performance, many of will never know what some of the special characteristics of new and unique steels are capable of. This is why it is nice to occasionally buy from a custom maker who has perfected a heat treat and gives the best performance a steel can offer.

This is the primary reason I don't do YouTube much for knife related stuff.

Baron Mind wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:42 pm

Better an underperforming steel in the hands of customers you know the majority of will only be lightly using their knives is a safer bet.

You got it in one.

When a serious user says things (and still working out who is who), then you take more notice.
The problem with Social Media is it gives everyone a loud voice ("bad" news spreads faster)
but people don't know who's saying it, they just spread the (bad) message.

I find guacamole can fix most chip issues :D

Baron Mind wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:39 pm

SF Native wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:09 pm

One man’s chippy steel is another man’s high hardness true love.

Good point, but I don't think that high hardness necessarily correlates with chippyness. A lot of time the harder a steel gets the greater it's edge stability gets. Who wants a soft steel that rolls easily? I think maximizing resistance to deformation of any sort would be preferable.

Well, in engineering school, I learned that we can heat treat steel to be very hard. Like glass. It will break if you drop it. So, I think you are wrong. High hardness is exactly related to chippiness. Too high and it’s brittle. It doesn’t bent or roll. The real trick is to find the righ balance of high hardness and acceptable toughness. We all ask for high toughness. But it is inversely correlated to high hardness.

Nearly 50 years of life, 35 years of fishing and hunting, 25 years of butchering and I have never chipped a knife blade.

Have damaged blades many a time, but never chipped.

SF Native wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:32 am

Baron Mind wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:39 pm

SF Native wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:09 pm

One man’s chippy steel is another man’s high hardness true love.

Good point, but I don't think that high hardness necessarily correlates with chippyness. A lot of time the harder a steel gets the greater it's edge stability gets. Who wants a soft steel that rolls easily? I think maximizing resistance to deformation of any sort would be preferable.

Well, in engineering school, I learned that we can heat treat steel to be very hard. Like glass. It will break if you drop it. So, I think you are wrong. High hardness is exactly related to chippiness. Too high and it’s brittle. It doesn’t bent or roll. The real trick is to find the righ balance of high hardness and acceptable toughness. We all ask for high toughness. But it is inversely correlated to high hardness.

Both of you are right to some extent. Hardness does equate to toughness, to a point. Hardness isn't automatically tough or brittle, those qualities are dependent on the degree of hardness.

In my experience, overheated edges were the cause of chipping. A few sharpenings fixes it usually.

I have chipped several blades, small chips on the edge, and never complained because I was using the knife hard. I just sharpened them out and moved on. Think of them as micro serrations. HahaHa!

ZrowsN1s wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:07 am

I find guacamole can fix most chip issues :D

Salsa. Very hot salsa.

I’ve chipped every steel I’ve used except 3v and lc200n, even at somewhat conservative angles (16-18dps). None of those steels (s30v, s35vn, s110v, aus8, vg10, 14c28n, xhp, 20cv, cruwear, zdp189, hap40, maxamet) chipped noticeably worse than any other.

My knives cut hundreds of feet of cardboard too thick for boxcutters each workday, and regularly impact steel bars. Outside of the extreme toughness spectrum, any steel will chip quickly if pushed too far.

Barring botched heat treatment and excessively low edge angles, edge chipping is nearly always caused by user error, not steel.

standy99 wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:26 am

Nearly 50 years of life, 35 years of fishing and hunting, 25 years of butchering and I have never chipped a knife blade.

Have damaged blades many a time, but never chipped.

Almost in the same boat except I have chipped a couple of skinners and / or boners, Green River or Victorinox.
So rare can't remember when or where.


"any steel will chip quickly if pushed too far."

Exactly.

Doc Dan wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:55 am

ZrowsN1s wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:07 am

I find guacamole can fix most chip issues :D

Salsa. Very hot salsa.

You guys cracker me up...

archangel wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:10 am

Doc Dan wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:55 am

ZrowsN1s wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:07 am

I find guacamole can fix most chip issues :D

Salsa. Very hot salsa.

You guys cracker me up...

I dip my hat to you all! Very corny.