Sal, any traction on a CBN plate/bench stone?

[Zatx]

Hi there, Sal. Spyderco makes arguably the best bench stones around, but one must turn to other manufacturers to obtain a higher grit stone for reprofiling. In my research for just such a stone, I found a post you made on Cliff Stamp's forum in regards to a possible CBN plate. With all of the new CBN offerings in the pipeline, did this make it into near-future product talks? As an outside, it seems like a flat plate would be much quicker and simpler to bring to market than the Goldenstone or Gauntlet offerings. A higher grit bench stone just looks like a glaring hole in the Spyderco product line up to this amatuer, but I'm ignorant of consumer demand.

[p_atrick]

Deadboxhero (aka Big Brown Bear on YT) had some CBN stones made (I believe he even sold a few). I think that he has something in the works for purchase.

I honestly don't know if stones (outside of the guided systems) are where Spyderco should be putting lots of time, effort, and money. There are already some great stones out there (Shapton, Naniwa, etc.). What would the advantage be for Spyderco? DBH has been talking about the cutting edge stones (metallic bonded, vitrified CBN, etc.), but he says they are very expensive. Again, would Spyderco be okay with a low volume (probably low margin) stone?

[Zatx]

Deadboxhero (aka Big Brown Bear on YT) had some CBN stones made (I believe he even sold a few). I think that he has something in the works for purchase.

These were Gritomatic pre-production stones that they now sell on their site. Yeah, I think $400 for a single CBN stone is a bit... excessive. I'm not sure why they took the time and expense to mount the plates on glass stones. If you compare the surface area of the $50 Spyderco CBN rods to Gritomatic's plate, they are nearly identical and the shape of the triangle stones has to be harder to plate than a simple flat panel. Not to mention, you can get DMT continuous diamond plates for $50 as well.

[Deadboxhero]

:D it's not the same thing though. Other CBN/Diamond stones are a single layer coating on a metal surface once they wear and tear you throw it away.

The Gritomatic CBN is a FULL STONE not just coated.

That doesn't do any favors to the cost, especially using the Metallic bonding technology to hold it. CBN cost more then diamond too.

The Poltava Metallic bonded stone made for Gritomatic is a 3mm thick and has CBN dispersed thoughout just like a regular stone. The bonding however is a copper,tin alloy that holds the CBN grit in place. So it's mounted on glass to prevent it from bending (copper,tin=soft)

Also the CBN abrasive grains are inbeded in the bonding so you get less deep scratches then on a coated stone where the abrasive grains "poke up" more and scratch deeper which is problematic if your looking for a nicer finish.

The bond is very strong and resistant to dishing it doesn't brake down like other bonds which is good and bad.

It has to be manually dressed using copper etching fliud to burn down the Metallic bonding so fresh grit can be revealed (this is why the base is made of glass)This isn't needed frequently since the CBN grains are very strong and don't wear much.

So it's like an Everlasting diamond plate that has a better finish.

It's not really for casual users, across the country there are several boutique culinary companies that sharpen about 5,000 -15,000 knives a year freehand for the professional cooking community.

They need this stone, it offers a lot more performance in longevity, cutting speed and finish. They would kill a diamond plate in less then a week.

So they get more VALUE from the technology even at higher cost it pays for itself

So is it better? Yes
Does a regular guy need it? Probably not

Will it make you a better sharpener? **** no. Skill not tools, but nice tools will enhance what you have and make the experience more enjoyable for some.

Deadboxhero (aka Big Brown Bear on YT) had some CBN stones made (I believe he even sold a few). I think that he has something in the works for purchase.

These were Gritomatic pre-production stones that they now sell on their site. Yeah, I think $400 for a single CBN stone is a bit... excessive. I'm not sure why they took the time and expense to mount the plates on glass stones. If you compare the surface area of the $50 Spyderco CBN rods to Gritomatic's plate, they are nearly identical and the shape of the triangle stones has to be harder to plate than a simple flat panel. Not to mention, you can get DMT continuous diamond plates for $50 as well.

[Bloke]

The Poltava Metallic bonded stone made for Gritomatic is a 3mm thick and has CBN dispersed thoughout just like a regular stone. The bonding however is a copper,tin alloy that holds the CBN grit in place. So it's mounted on glass to prevent it from bending (copper,tin=soft)

Also the CBN abrasive grains are inbeded in the bonding so you get less deep scratches then on a coated stone where the abrasive grains "poke up" more and scratch deeper which is problematic if your looking for a nicer finish.

The bond is very strong and resistant to dishing it doesn't brake down like other bonds which is good and bad.

It has to be manually dressed using copper etching fliud to burn down the Metallic bonding so fresh grit can be revealed (this is why the base is made of glass)This isn't needed frequently since the CBN grains are very strong and don't wear much.

Hey Shawn,

Is this specific to the Poltava Hones?

The reason I ask is; I have a few Venev Diamond and CDN hones and they’re quite resistant to dishing. The ones I have came fairly flat but not dead flat so I flatten them with loose grit SiC and water on glass. :)

[Zatx]

Thanks for that information; it does reveal why the cost is so much higher. I know the guys at Gritomatic and worked with them on v6 of the Hapstone, so despite my tone I didn’t mean to imply they were ripping people off, but that I didn’t understand the cost disparity.

Thanks again!

[Xplorer]

I am a proud owner of one of Shawn's CBN stones. It's the most incredible stone I've ever used. The combination of raw cutting power and smooth consistent feedback is unlike anything else I've tried. It allows me to easily set the bevel on a high vanadium carbide blades like M390, CPM Cruwear, 4V, etc.. by hand, when I would have done that on a grinder in the past. It makes sharpening or re-profiling high hardness steels like M4, 4V, S110V no more difficult than VG10 on a ceramic stone. Shawn's CBN stone is a total game changer in my shop. From what he tells me his next batch is supposed to be better. I'm not sure how they're supposed to get better, but I can't wait. I'll pay whatever he charges. Game Changer! :)

[Bill1170]

So the copper/tin matrix, I wonder if the chemical ratio qualifies it as bronze? These stones sound fascinating. If my dad were still alive he’d buy several in a heartbeat!

[Deadboxhero]

The Poltava Metallic bonded stone made for Gritomatic is a 3mm thick and has CBN dispersed thoughout just like a regular stone. The bonding however is a copper,tin alloy that holds the CBN grit in place. So it's mounted on glass to prevent it from bending (copper,tin=soft)

Also the CBN abrasive grains are inbeded in the bonding so you get less deep scratches then on a coated stone where the abrasive grains "poke up" more and scratch deeper which is problematic if your looking for a nicer finish.

The bond is very strong and resistant to dishing it doesn't brake down like other bonds which is good and bad.

It has to be manually dressed using copper etching fliud to burn down the Metallic bonding so fresh grit can be revealed (this is why the base is made of glass)This isn't needed frequently since the CBN grains are very strong and don't wear much.

Hey Shawn,

Is this specific to the Poltava Hones?

The reason I ask is; I have a few Venev Diamond and CDN hones and they’re quite resistant to dishing. The ones I have came fairly flat but not dead flat so I flatten them with loose grit SiC and water on glass. :)

It's a different bond Alex. Those Venev stones are a resin bond

[Deadboxhero]

Thanks for the kind words Chad, I appreciate it. :)

I am a proud owner of one of Shawn's CBN stones. It's the most incredible stone I've ever used. The combination of raw cutting power and smooth consistent feedback is unlike anything else I've tried. It allows me to easily set the bevel on a high vanadium carbide blades like M390, CPM Cruwear, 4V, etc.. by hand, when I would have done that on a grinder in the past. It makes sharpening or re-profiling high hardness steels like M4, 4V, S110V no more difficult than VG10 on a ceramic stone. Shawn's CBN stone is a total game changer in my shop. From what he tells me his next batch is supposed to be better. I'm not sure how they're supposed to get better, but I can't wait. I'll pay whatever he charges. Game Changer! :)

[Bloke]

It's a different bond Alex. Those are Venev is a resin bond.

Ah, but of coarse, I see, I see ... very interesting! :cool:

Thanks heaps Shawn. :)

[Deadboxhero]

Hi there, Sal. Spyderco makes arguably the best bench stones around, but one must turn to other manufacturers to obtain a higher grit stone for reprofiling. In my research for just such a stone, I found a post you made on Cliff Stamp's forum in regards to a possible CBN plate. With all of the new CBN offerings in the pipeline, did this make it into near-future product talks? As an outside, it seems like a flat plate would be much quicker and simpler to bring to market than the Goldenstone or Gauntlet offerings. A higher grit bench stone just looks like a glaring hole in the Spyderco product line up to this amatuer, but I'm ignorant of consumer demand.

I believe Sal has talked about there being a coated CBN benchstone in the future. It still won't be cheap but it would be a nice option in Spyderco's line up. While folks here enjoy the brown Ceramic stone it simply doesn't have the horsepower for heavy reprofiling.
I've had my Spyderco" Double Stuff 2" CBN pocket stone for well over a year of EDC
I've totally gotten my money's worth out of that stone.

[attila]

I've had my Spyderco" Double Stuff 2" CBN pocket stone for well over a year of EDC
I've totally gotten my money's worth out of that stone.

Can you quantify/estimate the use it's seen? Is the CBN worn out yet? Do you feel the fine side makes too big of a grit jump from the CBN? Thanks!

[Deadboxhero]

I've had my Spyderco" Double Stuff 2" CBN pocket stone for well over a year of EDC
I've totally gotten my money's worth out of that stone.

Can you quantify/estimate the use it's seen? Is the CBN worn out yet? Do you feel the fine side makes too big of a grit jump from the CBN? Thanks!

I've sharpened well over 200+ knives with mine with various levels of damage, even fixed some missing tips

Out of the box it was insanely aggressive. That's died off a great deal.

You'll get the best results with light pressure. Both in longevity to the stone and with preventing even deeper scratches. The white Ceramic was never intended to finish out the CBN scratches it's just to deburr and give a little more refining to the edge.

[Phil Wilson]

I have one of Shawn's hones, not sure which version ( Shawn can get more specific) but I would second Xplorer's description. It has a feel and a cutting personality that is truly unique. No problem with grades like K390 and Rex 121. We used a lot of different hones cutting various materials when Shawn visited my shop couple of months ago. Needless to say he left the shop with out his hone.

Will be at shot Tuesday and Wed and would enjoy talking steels and knife tech if any forum members happen to be there and drop by. Phil

[sal]

Hi Zatx,

We're still in the "talking about it" stage. Hard to judge demand on a stone like that.

sal

[Pelagic]

If Spyderco were to make a solid CBN stone to compete with the new vitrified waterstones on the market today, that would propel them into a new market. Imagine a 400 and a 1000. Even the snobbiest of edge snobs could get by with spyderco products alone.

[Deadboxhero]

Thanks Phil, have fun at the show. I look forward to seeing you at the Eugene show. I'll bring more stones to try. :D

I have one of Shawn's hones, not sure which version ( Shawn can get more specific) but I would second Xplorer's description. It has a feel and a cutting personality that is truly unique. No problem with grades like K390 and Rex 121. We used a lot of different hones cutting various materials when Shawn visited my shop couple of months ago. Needless to say he left the shop with out his hone.

Will be at shot Tuesday and Wed and would enjoy talking steels and knife tech if any forum members happen to be there and drop by. Phil

[Pelagic]

I am a proud owner of one of Shawn's CBN stones. It's the most incredible stone I've ever used. The combination of raw cutting power and smooth consistent feedback is unlike anything else I've tried. It allows me to easily set the bevel on a high vanadium carbide blades like M390, CPM Cruwear, 4V, etc.. by hand, when I would have done that on a grinder in the past. It makes sharpening or re-profiling high hardness steels like M4, 4V, S110V no more difficult than VG10 on a ceramic stone. Shawn's CBN stone is a total game changer in my shop. From what he tells me his next batch is supposed to be better. I'm not sure how they're supposed to get better, but I can't wait. I'll pay whatever he charges. Game Changer! :)

Shawn, do you have any more for sale? Is there a link?

[Deadboxhero]

Nothing for now. I'm getting stones ready for the Eugene, OR Knife show.

I am a proud owner of one of Shawn's CBN stones. It's the most incredible stone I've ever used. The combination of raw cutting power and smooth consistent feedback is unlike anything else I've tried. It allows me to easily set the bevel on a high vanadium carbide blades like M390, CPM Cruwear, 4V, etc.. by hand, when I would have done that on a grinder in the past. It makes sharpening or re-profiling high hardness steels like M4, 4V, S110V no more difficult than VG10 on a ceramic stone. Shawn's CBN stone is a total game changer in my shop. From what he tells me his next batch is supposed to be better. I'm not sure how they're supposed to get better, but I can't wait. I'll pay whatever he charges. Game Changer! :)

Shawn, do you have any more for sale? Is there a link?