BD1N I still want to know

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BD1N I still want to know

Postby Doc Dan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:44 am

I still want to know about the edge holding, toughness, and corrosion resistance of BD1N. Do we have any hard evidence? Does anyone have any actual experience?
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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby araneae » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:53 am

Its used in some kitchen knives and i have heard good things.
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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby awa54 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:08 am

Only reviews I have read are for the Richmond kitchen knives in BD1N, but they all claim extended working edge time compared to basic stainless.

Not much to go on, but I'll update you with information gained from personal experience, once my Para 3 LW arrives ;)
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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby p_atrick » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:24 am

awa54 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:08 am
Only reviews I have read are for the Richmond kitchen knives in BD1N, but they all claim extended working edge time compared to basic stainless.

Not much to go on, but I'll update you with information gained from personal experience, once my Para 3 LW arrives ;)

This Richmond knife is hardened to 63. I'm interested to see how Spyderco HT the blade.

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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby DSH007 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:40 am

My UKPK arrived about three weeks ago in BD1N.. my initial impressions of the steel have been quite favorable, though to say I've put it through any sort of heavy-use testing would be a gross exaggeration. Based on my very limited use, it seems to hold an edge well enough for basic light cutting tasks, and I have not noticed any issues with corrosion so far. I've used this knife to cut up some cardboard, a few zip-ties, open some boxes, slice my morning apples, etc. over the period of about three weeks.. so, I say again, very limited use, but.. I have yet to sharpen the knife at all and it remains razor-sharp. Time will tell, but my assessment so far has been that that this knife in BD1N is more than adequately sufficient for standard EDC cutting tasks and, for the cost, seems to represent a real value.
Last edited by DSH007 on Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby dj moonbat » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:49 am

I use a BD1N chef's and paring knife. The edge-taking is nearly as good as VG10 and the edge-holding is definitely better. Keep in mind that the main reasons your edge goes away under kitchen conditions are cutting board impact and corrosion. If you're doing a lot of fibrous cutting, I doubt BD1N's edge retention would stack up particularly well against a Vanadium monster steel.

It will show some very superficial rust spotting if I put it away wet.

It is my favorite all-round steel now, supplanting VG10. I encourage Spyderco to continue integrating it with their mid-tier offerings in VG-10's place, and to continue exploring other steels with nitrogen augmentation. I'm a believer.

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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby attila » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:17 am

p_atrick wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:24 am
awa54 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:08 am
Only reviews I have read are for the Richmond kitchen knives in BD1N, but they all claim extended working edge time compared to basic stainless.

Not much to go on, but I'll update you with information gained from personal experience, once my Para 3 LW arrives ;)

This Richmond knife is hardened to 63. I'm interested to see how Spyderco HT the blade.
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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby Deadboxhero » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:59 am

Dan just buy one, you'll like it. It takes and holds a nice polished edge.

Doc Dan wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:44 am
I still want to know about the edge holding, toughness, and corrosion resistance of BD1N. Do we have any hard evidence? Does anyone have any actual experience?
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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby SF Native » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:25 pm

My experience is the same as dsh007 above.
Ukpk... too soon to tell, but initial impressions are good.

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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby sparky2016 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:42 pm

Keep in mind it's just meant to be something better than VG-10 or BD1, as an all around and moderately priced steel. It's not a super steel, so some comparisons may not be useful.
[ Elliot Williamson, Founder of Ferrum Forge Knife Works] tells us Carpenter’s CTS-BD1N holds the potential to achieve stardom as the go-to performer of the production knife world. It costs about the same as VG-10 or N690, with a better mix of wear resistance, corrosion resistance, and sharpenability. These qualities make it an easy choice for anyone looking for the best price-to-performance ratio.

...

Sal Glesser has already revealed that Spyderco’s Chinese OEM will likely start phasing in CTS-BD1N to replace the BD1 on models like the Polestar and Raven 2. If others follow, BD1N could represent a new watermark for budget-friendly steel performance. “It’s really going to come down to how many companies pick it up and promote it, how many are willing to put real marketing dollars behind it.”link

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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby Vivi » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:50 pm

Can't comment on BD1N, but BD1 has performed about the same as VG10 for me, trading just a pinch of edge holding for even easier sharpening.

If BD1N sharpens anything like BD1 you'll be in for a treat. I've said it many times but I have never put a better edge on any steel than with BD1, it's one of the reasons I like it so much. It gets insanely sharp for me.

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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby JacksonKnives » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:13 pm

This is a great steel to compare with AUS8, Sandvik steels and AEB-L, but it's not a high-wear-resistance cardboard-killer.

I don't have a way to test hardness (knife too thin anyway) but the edge holding off my kitchen knife is great.

The behavior of the steel is slightly different than you may expect. It resists wear better than AUS8/8Cr and I'd assume better than AEB-L at the same hardness. I only have harder VG-10 Japanese kichen knives to compare with, and I feel they resist wear better.

Rope tests I've seen are pretty consistently on the same order as VG-10, with some variability either side (very easily explained by geometry and heart treat.)

For edge stability, I'd say it's easier to get a usable thin edge on BD1N. (I've been sharpening at 12° peer side with an edge pro.) VG-10 is pretty great for a kitchen knife, so that's not anything to sneeze at.

The big difference compared to VG-10 is toughness. I can actually re-align/steel my BD1N edge back from a roll; VG-10 will chip and shear off in foil strips with the same treatment. (Softer VG-10 on a Chinese knife isn't as bad, but it's not an operation for practical use.)

If you're just going to sharpen a rolled edge rather than steel it, the advantage is reduced or maybe goes away. Maybe someone will develop an amazing heat treat that will help it edge out VG-10 and LC200N for wear resistance or to be amazing in a super-thin edge, but it's not going to replace S35VN for most people.

I think it's a great steel for super thin slicers. I'd be happy to try it in more kitchen knives or a Caly 3.5/Dragonfly/Chapparal. Maybe it would also be good for chopping in thick geometries, but that's not my wheelhouse.

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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby Deadboxhero » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:29 pm

Well, it's definitely not s125v or k390

But neither is S30v and I think people will be pleasantly surprised with BD1N

We'll have to see how the HT turns out. Hardness isn't everything but the beauty of BD1N is higher working hardness without being edge brittle.

I've been using my Yata 8" gyuto in BD1N at 63 for over a year. It's very pleasant.

Very much superior to VG10.

Has a lot of advantages over S30v/s35vn as well.

If I had to choose between low hardness and carbides or higher hardness and Nitrides I prefer the latter.

With these Production knives most are stuck at 60rc to be modest for a HUGE range of end users with varying degrees of experience, sharpening equipment and skill. Also HUGE variables with how there being used, for what and what the end users expectations are for sharpeness and what performance is.

So for the masses it will very much be a favorite, even more so then S30v I feel, some may even experience more edge holding in real world use then S30v.

I like S30v/S35VN, don't get me wrong.
They have there place.
But it's time to break the norm and try something new. A different flavor of performance.

One with higher hardness and more stability rather then just wear resistance.

At the end of the day, I don't have a Spyderco in BD1N in my hand to compare. So I don't know what the performance will be like

My experience with BD1N on customs is that it can smoke thicker, softer S30v but by manipulating the geometry and hardness. Its Geometry cuts and the hardness supports thinner blades and lower angles but at a consequence to being thumped on. Trades offs for everything.
S30v at the same geometry and hardeness would be more prone to microchipping then Bd1n in real world use.

I've used Yaxells "Dragon" which was made in Japan and it has had a great HT.


I've had great conversations with Dennis, who got Yaxell to use the Bd1n steel with his "Dragon" line after he had been testing it with his old friend Ken Onion.
Dennis told me that Ken really liked the steel and noticed it held a great edge for bear hunting.

Dennis Epstein used to be in charge of Kai/Shun back when it launched and helped make Shun a house hold name in kitchen knives he later formed Apogee Cutlery and is the reason why BD1N taking the kitchen knife world by storm.

I've had a very small batch of BD1N Puukkos made by Malanika in some blanks that I had Heat treated by Brad at Peter's to 63rc.

It made a good woods blade thanks to the combination of hardness and stability.

S30v was less suitable for that application.

I think at the end of the day, some will rave about it. Some will want more aggression, some will want more strength some will want more corrison resistance.
But there is no free lunch, always trade offs, cost is also a factor.

BD1N isn't the "Messiah" but it's a nice steel that many will enjoy and it's nice to play with a steel that has a higher working Hardness not just raw carbides.




sparky2016 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:42 pm
Keep in mind it's just meant to be something better than VG-10 or BD1, as an all around and moderately priced steel. It's not a super steel, so some comparisons may not be useful.
[ Elliot Williamson, Founder of Ferrum Forge Knife Works] tells us Carpenter’s CTS-BD1N holds the potential to achieve stardom as the go-to performer of the production knife world. It costs about the same as VG-10 or N690, with a better mix of wear resistance, corrosion resistance, and sharpenability. These qualities make it an easy choice for anyone looking for the best price-to-performance ratio.

...

Sal Glesser has already revealed that Spyderco’s Chinese OEM will likely start phasing in CTS-BD1N to replace the BD1 on models like the Polestar and Raven 2. If others follow, BD1N could represent a new watermark for budget-friendly steel performance. “It’s really going to come down to how many companies pick it up and promote it, how many are willing to put real marketing dollars behind it.”link
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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby Deadboxhero » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:47 pm

I'm sure Sal can fill in the details or just explain this better but I had a good conversation with him at the Eugene knife show 2018.

He told me the history of CTS-BD1

Carpenter offered to make a steel for him as gratitude for helping with knife steel research.

Sal is a big fan of Hitachi Gingami "銀紙" "silver paper" steel and wanted a similar formula for knives.

So "Blade Design One" or BD1 was born.

It never really took off due to low wear resistance and its reputation quickly tarnished as a low edge holding budget steel.

I like the steel, it just lacks identity, doesn't have that "killer instinct" just very basic in a world packed with options.

So the world moved on. Years later, unknown to Sal the steel was being modified using PESR to add Nitrogen and boost the working Hardness through solid solution strengthening using fine CrN to to fill the lattice and also promote a boost in wear resistance without consequence to stability.

Now 2019 and we have the still we should have had all those years ago in a Spyderco.
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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby zhyla » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:04 pm

Saw the recent reveal of the Para3 LW is sporting BD1N so did some quick googling. Usually you can get some consensus from skimming Bladeforums threads but this steel has one major flaw: everyone lumps it in with BD1 because the names are too similar. That combined with how one-dimensional most people are with evaluating steels and it's pretty hard to get much idea of its performance.

Maybe we can read a bit into it from the Para 3 LW announcement. That's obviously a cost-reduced Para 3. Is the steel choice a lower cost steel compromise similar to the Manix 2 LW? If it were both cheaper and better than S30V we would probably see it replace S30V across the board, right? And maybe it is and it will over time -- if it works well in the Para 3.

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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby JacksonKnives » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:19 am

Deadboxhero wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:29 pm
I've had great conversations with Dennis, who got Yaxell to use the Bd1n steel with his "Dragon" line after he had been testing it with his old friend Ken Onion.
Dennis told me that Ken really liked the steel and noticed it held a great edge for bear hunting.

Dennis Epstein used to be in charge of Kai/Shun back when it launched and helped make Shun a house hold name in kitchen knives he later formed Apogee Cutlery and is the reason why BD1N taking the kitchen knife world by storm.

I've had a very small batch of BD1N Puukkos made by Malanika in some blanks that I had Heat treated by Brad at Peter's to 63rc.

It made a good woods blade thanks to the combination of hardness and stability.
Mr. Epstein really, really loves this steel, just talking with him on the phone made me realize he's doing basically everything he can to making BD1N "happen."

I hope that the kitchen knife community starts to give it the respect it deserves, but I also hope we can get past the "super steel" hype and learn what kinds of blades it's most suited for, and why. We've only barely got there with AEB-L, though... The big / prestige manufacturers are very resistant to change.

Very glad to hear it works in a puukko too.

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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby Vivi » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:38 am

Makes me happy steels like this are slowly getting more respect.

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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby Doc Dan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:50 am

Here is an interesting comparison to a steel I am familiar with: http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/st ... hrn=1&gm=0

Sandvik's 14C28N is another nitrogen steel that I think is probably in the same category. In my experience, 14C28N will take a very sharp edge and hold it longer than S30V, but then once is loses that, it dulls very quickly, while S30V will keep a working edge much longer. Still, it is a decent steel. So, will the higher C, Cr, and higher N, plus the little bit of Mo make a big difference? I think in might, but I want to know.
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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby archangel » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:28 am

From what I have learned from another thread, if I'm not misinterpreting, it's not so much just an alteration of BD1 but rather very different in composition, right?
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Re: BD1N I still want to know

Postby zhyla » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:47 am

archangel wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:28 am
From what I have learned from another thread, if I'm not misinterpreting, it's not so much just an alteration of BD1 but rather very different in composition, right?
Very similar composition (see chart), but small changes in steel composition have large changes in its properties. For example 1084 and 1095 differ by just a fraction of a % of carbon content, but it turns out to make a different in heat treatment (1084 being eutectoid and 1095 being hypereutectoid).

Unless you’re a metallurgist it’s best to focus on outcomes of steel usage than to try to make predictions based on steel composition.


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