Many of you probably don't get what I
mean by THIS ; augury was practiced in
Ancient Rome, it did involve divination
and mysticism, but oft involved the
reading of "signs" ( NOT necessarily Omens )
that could be used to predict events.
Literally, it was Theorism and little else,
the magic & often bizarre rituals just made
for a good show for who(m)ever sought out their service.
Some examples I know of that exist today are :
Seagulls coming inland before a storm
( a sign a storm is approaching, but more
that seagull's sensory preception tells them
to get inland! )
Birds flying South for the Winter
( Not so, anymore! When I moved from
Connecticut last year, we had numerous birds
with us through the Winter, they were STILL
there when I left!)
Or, howz 'bout THIS for augury...
"The Germans were almost completely deceived-
only Hitler guessed right, and hesitated to back his hunch..."
A.J.P. Taylor
English History 1914-1945
In that case, Hitler's opinion of the easiest
way to cross the Channel to The Continent, no
doubt he felt he might be thought of as an
"augurer" as he had only a "hunch" and few facts to back him up.
This is NOT to say anyone who(m) replies
to my thread(s) hasn't the facts ( all the time <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>) or isn't "on target" with regards
their opinion. But we all literally have
our own beliefs of things based on our experience.
What say the augerers?
AET <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
What say the augurers?
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AllenETreat
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dialex
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Though I do believe in signs from God (or its equivalent for non believers), I tend to treat those things rather as superstitions. There are so many charlatans here who pretend to deal with mystical stuff... If you read a paper you'll see tenth of ads about that particular wizard (witch, shaman, whatever) who heals sick people, helps you get married, makes you win at the lottery and cures firms from bankrupcy!
<a href="http://users.pcnet.ro/dialex"><font color=blue>(my page)</font></a>
<a href="http://users.pcnet.ro/dialex"><font color=blue>(my page)</font></a>
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AllenETreat
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DiALEX :
What I was drivin' at ( NOT a jeep! <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>) is
the way forum-ites express their opine(s)
to my threads. Some use facts, others meebee
just guessin' at it! <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Give you an exapmple of my "augury"
Some Army buddies I had been in contact with
were interested in trying to collect the
"bounty" on Osama Bin Laden's head (5millionU.S.D.'s!) and couldn't begin to
think where to look, I looked at the "signs":
* He was not anywhere in the Middle East to
the best knowledge of U.S. & foreign intel.
* The former Soviet Union ( that calls itself
"Russia" now <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>) sponsered world terrorist
activity in the 70's & early 80's.
* This activity was bankrolled by the K.G.B.
as Claire Sterling's book "The terror network" described based on Government documents ( and K.G.B. documents )
* Vladimir Putin was a high ranking K.G.B.
official, and is now President of Russia.
Then, there's the old addage :
"Does a tiger change it's stripes?"
Based on that, my "divination" of these "signs" puts Bin Laden in Chechnya in
Russia ( possibly under the protection of
the Russian special forces, or SPETSNAZ ).
Far fetched? Look at the FACTS I've presented. Why didn't I bother to tell
Uncle Sam?( U.S.) simply the same reason
as Hitler's, it's an educated guess, and probably would be balked at by the "professional" intel people in the various "thinktanks" in America & abroad.
This is NOT to say I wouldn't be surprised if Bin Laden WAS there!
AET <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
What I was drivin' at ( NOT a jeep! <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>) is
the way forum-ites express their opine(s)
to my threads. Some use facts, others meebee
just guessin' at it! <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Give you an exapmple of my "augury"
Some Army buddies I had been in contact with
were interested in trying to collect the
"bounty" on Osama Bin Laden's head (5millionU.S.D.'s!) and couldn't begin to
think where to look, I looked at the "signs":
* He was not anywhere in the Middle East to
the best knowledge of U.S. & foreign intel.
* The former Soviet Union ( that calls itself
"Russia" now <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>) sponsered world terrorist
activity in the 70's & early 80's.
* This activity was bankrolled by the K.G.B.
as Claire Sterling's book "The terror network" described based on Government documents ( and K.G.B. documents )
* Vladimir Putin was a high ranking K.G.B.
official, and is now President of Russia.
Then, there's the old addage :
"Does a tiger change it's stripes?"
Based on that, my "divination" of these "signs" puts Bin Laden in Chechnya in
Russia ( possibly under the protection of
the Russian special forces, or SPETSNAZ ).
Far fetched? Look at the FACTS I've presented. Why didn't I bother to tell
Uncle Sam?( U.S.) simply the same reason
as Hitler's, it's an educated guess, and probably would be balked at by the "professional" intel people in the various "thinktanks" in America & abroad.
This is NOT to say I wouldn't be surprised if Bin Laden WAS there!
AET <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
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java
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Allen,
Some of what was once considered sorcery, witchcraft, and the seer's mystic art was based on observation of natural but unexplained occurrences. (I may have my literary source confused, but wasn't the hero in a "Connecticut Yankee..." taken as a man of the black arts when he presaged an eclipse?) Many of the superstitions and beliefs in dark arts of yore we now accept as revealed scientific facts. That which survives and is unexplained today passes for mysticism or religion. Augury of itself was an esteemed calling and its practitioners were afforded an elevated status in local lore and settings like the Oracle at Delphi, until it butted beliefs with Christian doctrine in Medieval times where seers of visions a la Joan of Arc, epileptics, and near any manner of odd behavior was taken as being in league with or possessed by the devil. As Gallileo, Copernicus, and other giants of science were excommunicated by the Church, it amazes me not only that science survived but in various kingdoms the sorcerer was a revered and feared figure. A rather interesting dichotomy I would say.
Augury persists to this day and flourishes, thanks to media exposure in astrology, soothsayers, divination, fortune telling, seances, your personal reading from Miss What’s-her-name with her hokey Jamaican accent, religious beliefs in anime, idolatry, and prediction/predestination, and whacked-out controlling figures like Jim Jones, David Koresh, Rev. Moon, pocket change doomsday comet worshipers and anyone who has an exact end-of-the-world date coupled with a plan for the chosen few. For these people it’s a matter of faith. For others, it’s an uphill battle in, what Carl Sagan labeled, "The Demon Haunted World".
I concur that "we all literally have our own beliefs of things based on our experience". But I’ll go you one further and say that many of our beliefs are not always a direct experience but a refreshing dip in the well of common knowledge as we collectively move forward in our understanding of the world around us. It seems augury and the mystic arts will dog civilization until the end of time (exactly 32 years, 7 hours, and 12 seconds from now <img src="http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/misc/eek.gif"> ) and the skeptical enquirer will be hot their heels.
Meanwhile, Allen, let me see what the bones say about the rest of your comments. <img src=" http://community.the-underdogs.org/smil ... iggrin.gif">
<font color="BLUE">"A hole-less knife is soul-less knife is a whole less knife" - Javanese proverb" </font>
Edited by - java on 5/13/2003 9:39:12 AM
Some of what was once considered sorcery, witchcraft, and the seer's mystic art was based on observation of natural but unexplained occurrences. (I may have my literary source confused, but wasn't the hero in a "Connecticut Yankee..." taken as a man of the black arts when he presaged an eclipse?) Many of the superstitions and beliefs in dark arts of yore we now accept as revealed scientific facts. That which survives and is unexplained today passes for mysticism or religion. Augury of itself was an esteemed calling and its practitioners were afforded an elevated status in local lore and settings like the Oracle at Delphi, until it butted beliefs with Christian doctrine in Medieval times where seers of visions a la Joan of Arc, epileptics, and near any manner of odd behavior was taken as being in league with or possessed by the devil. As Gallileo, Copernicus, and other giants of science were excommunicated by the Church, it amazes me not only that science survived but in various kingdoms the sorcerer was a revered and feared figure. A rather interesting dichotomy I would say.
Augury persists to this day and flourishes, thanks to media exposure in astrology, soothsayers, divination, fortune telling, seances, your personal reading from Miss What’s-her-name with her hokey Jamaican accent, religious beliefs in anime, idolatry, and prediction/predestination, and whacked-out controlling figures like Jim Jones, David Koresh, Rev. Moon, pocket change doomsday comet worshipers and anyone who has an exact end-of-the-world date coupled with a plan for the chosen few. For these people it’s a matter of faith. For others, it’s an uphill battle in, what Carl Sagan labeled, "The Demon Haunted World".
I concur that "we all literally have our own beliefs of things based on our experience". But I’ll go you one further and say that many of our beliefs are not always a direct experience but a refreshing dip in the well of common knowledge as we collectively move forward in our understanding of the world around us. It seems augury and the mystic arts will dog civilization until the end of time (exactly 32 years, 7 hours, and 12 seconds from now <img src="http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/misc/eek.gif"> ) and the skeptical enquirer will be hot their heels.
Meanwhile, Allen, let me see what the bones say about the rest of your comments. <img src=" http://community.the-underdogs.org/smil ... iggrin.gif">
<font color="BLUE">"A hole-less knife is soul-less knife is a whole less knife" - Javanese proverb" </font>
Edited by - java on 5/13/2003 9:39:12 AM
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Sword and Shield
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java
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Hi James,
Not sure how often Allen gets out here anymore but as far as opine, it is a verb meaning to express ones opinion or to state as an opinion. It's from the Middle English and Middle French opiner and the original Latin opinari to have an opinion and dates from the 15th century. Bill O'Reilly uses it a lot on the his O'Reilly Factor (I'll withold the misleading "no spin zone"<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> show also.
Lately, though, as I've journeyed among the lost loblolly forests outside of Austin, I've heard displaced Sierra Club environmentalists begin their plaintive odes with this. Might be a California thing from the anti-logging Redwood days so we'll see have to wait and see if this new verbal twist it makes it into Websters.... <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Best to ya!
<font color="BLUE">"A hole-less knife is soul-less knife is a whole less knife" - <i>Javanese proverb"</i><font>
Not sure how often Allen gets out here anymore but as far as opine, it is a verb meaning to express ones opinion or to state as an opinion. It's from the Middle English and Middle French opiner and the original Latin opinari to have an opinion and dates from the 15th century. Bill O'Reilly uses it a lot on the his O'Reilly Factor (I'll withold the misleading "no spin zone"<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> show also.
Lately, though, as I've journeyed among the lost loblolly forests outside of Austin, I've heard displaced Sierra Club environmentalists begin their plaintive odes with this. Might be a California thing from the anti-logging Redwood days so we'll see have to wait and see if this new verbal twist it makes it into Websters.... <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Best to ya!
<font color="BLUE">"A hole-less knife is soul-less knife is a whole less knife" - <i>Javanese proverb"</i><font>
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AllenETreat
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- Location: The Constitution State USA
Java/John/Andy :
( explain "Andy" please )
I believe "opine" is in Webster's 10th Collegiate dictionary.
No, I'm not an "anti-logger" type, but it
looks like that's what the "Texican's"
should've been! It's all "wide open spaces"!
Cool it buildin' towns, villages & cities,
will ya'! Yer ruinin' the landscape! <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
JamesA :
Meebee we should come up with some
"James-isms" ( see that, I've coined another
"ism"! ) Just don't try a JamesA.com ; it'll
probably "cra$h & burn" like all those ".com's" in the early millenium
( which, OBTW, came without anyother "Y2K"
disasters the pvblic at large predicted! <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>)
AET <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Edited by - AllenETreat on 5/14/2003 3:12:55 PM
( explain "Andy" please )
I believe "opine" is in Webster's 10th Collegiate dictionary.
No, I'm not an "anti-logger" type, but it
looks like that's what the "Texican's"
should've been! It's all "wide open spaces"!
Cool it buildin' towns, villages & cities,
will ya'! Yer ruinin' the landscape! <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
JamesA :
Meebee we should come up with some
"James-isms" ( see that, I've coined another
"ism"! ) Just don't try a JamesA.com ; it'll
probably "cra$h & burn" like all those ".com's" in the early millenium
( which, OBTW, came without anyother "Y2K"
disasters the pvblic at large predicted! <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>)
AET <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Edited by - AllenETreat on 5/14/2003 3:12:55 PM