Hard truths and observations

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
wrdwrght
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby wrdwrght » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:38 pm

SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:08 pm
60 years of personal touch
“60 years of personal touch”, indeed.

And, oh, BTW, designs in the year 5 and in the year 55 don’t carry the same weight.

Got the actual thread reference?

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:11 pm

I am happy it exists and the price is just fine by me. Spyderco deserves to profit and I want them too. I want them to succeed so they keep producing new and innovative designs fo me to collect.

ladybug93
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:18 pm

wrdwrght wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:04 pm
ladybug93 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:44 pm
you all can jump on the spyderco praise train and talk about how you love and trust the company, but it doesn’t make the shaman any more of a value. and say what you want about materials not mattering or chinese companies not being reliable, but when spyderco offers knives with the same materials and quality i’ll just stick with the manix, which is more comfortable to my hand and wallet.
The bang-for-buck argument turns on how much of a buck you’re willing to part with.

If you’d rather buy a Manix2 instead of a Shaman (you’re hardly doing yourself a disservice), you could go further and buy a Tenacious instead of a Manix2 (and still not do yourself a disservice).

Some have justified the Shaman’s higher (than a Manix2) cost; you have justified the Manix2’s higher (than a Tenacious) cost. Nothing wrong with that.

I got a Shaman neither because it was somehow a value-proposition, nor because I trust Spyderco (though I do trust Spyderco never to turn out a crap knife, and always to offer a compelling range of knives). I paid the “extra” dollars less because I could afford it, and more because the knife’s COST-INDUCING refinements of ordinary materials (not to forget the design itself) appealed to me.

You’re doing the same with the Manix2.

As I said, it’s all about the buck you’re willing to part with.

This thread amounts to a complaint about the attack on our thresholds, and nothing more than that. I thought it was a given that we all hate paying more.
very good, and fair, point. for example, i would much rather have a manix than a tenacious, but i would not rather have a manix xl than a resilience, which i also have and love. i suppose that depends on how much you want certain features. if you're one of the people that think the manix would be perfect if it was more contoured and had a compression lock, then the extra price may not seem like too much to you. i suppose i get that to an extent. i think spyderco would sell a lot more of them if the price was more in line with the rest of their similar models. if the standard shaman was $160, i bet no one would say anything about it. personally, i'd still feel the same way about it (not being worth it to 'upgrade' from a manix), but i bet there wouldn't be threads like this.
Vivi wrote: The rounded scales of the Shaman make it cost more to make compared to similar designs using the same materials. Something to consider.

IIRC the Temp 3 sells for a similar price while being smaller and having regular scales.
contoured scales, stonewashed blade, and thicker blade stock all add to the price. i get that. i just think $50 is a lot for those changes and they don't add $50 of value for me. the li'l temperance 3 costs an insane amount for what it is. i talked enough about all of that in the price increase thread.


by the way, the $50 i keep bringing up is the difference between the shaman and the pm2, since they are similar size, materials, and the have same lock. it's an attempt to be fair. the difference between the shaman and the standard g10/s30v manix is almost $75. if they cost the same money, i'd still prefer the manix after having handled them both, but i'd probably own a shaman anyway if it was more reasonably priced.

and with that said, what accounts for the $30 difference between the manix and pm2? the lock? the manix seems like it would be more costly to produce and has a ambidextrous lock. it can't be the lock though because the yojimbo costs the same as the manix, but has a compression lock and much thicker blade stock. in fact, the blade of the yojimbo is even thicker than the shaman. there goes that idea. see why this stops making sense?

basically, if you want an outstanding spyderco knife in s30v and g10, the manix and yojimbo are the best values (at around $115). if you want to spend more for similar products, you can buy a manix xl or a pm2 (at around $140). if you want to spend too much for similar products, you can buy a shaman (at around $190).

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote: I am happy it exists and the price is just fine by me. Spyderco deserves to profit and I want them too. I want them to succeed so they keep producing new and innovative designs fo me to collect.
i would like them to succeed as well. i like the company and their products. i don't appreciate the discrepancies i pointed out above, but spyderco are free to have them and you are free to spend what you want on knives you want.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:25 pm

Pretty sure I don’t need you telling me what I’m free to do, please don’t It is rude and arrogant.

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Pelagic
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Pelagic » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:37 pm

Knife design is a product of a small team of people's mistakes (in their view) and evolution as knife designers. Many Benchmade models are the products of decades of thought, trial and error, and fine tuning... And I absolutely cannot stand the final product.

The trust issue is different. I trust spyderco wholeheartedly. But I don't care how much thought has gone into a design. The end product is the end product.
Pancake wrote:
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Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
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You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

ladybug93
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:45 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:25 pm
Pretty sure I don’t need you telling me what I’m free to do, please don’t It is rude and arrogant.
i'm not sure how that is rude or arrogant, but in any case, that is not how i meant it at all. i'm sorry if it came across that way. i'm talking about you as in the consumer; not you specifically. maybe i should have replaced "you" with "we?"

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:57 pm

Thank you I understand now, My Apologies as well, I too have strong feelings about things. We may not agree but I do respect your point of view.

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sal
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby sal » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:26 pm

Hey Ladybug,

The Shaman cost more to make it than we thought. We're working on trying to figure out ways to reduce the mfg costs. We always listen to our customers. We just don't throw something out there and say tough sh*t. It's just not the way we do things. Because our customers can't see why it cost more, doesn't mean it didn't cost more. Some times I can't see why something is the way it is. That doesn't mean it isn't, it just means I can't see it.

sal

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby TomAiello » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:35 pm

Mom3ntuM wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:03 pm
8 $ per hour?
Is it possible to live on that?
It's certainly possible to live on $8/hr where I am. It's on the low end, but it's still a livable wage in some places.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:46 pm

Really? Sounds like a nice place!

ladybug93
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:14 pm

sal wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:26 pm
Hey Ladybug,

The Shaman cost more to make it than we thought. We're working on trying to figure out ways to reduce the mfg costs. We always listen to our customers. We just don't throw something out there and say tough sh*t. It's just not the way we do things. Because our customers can't see why it cost more, doesn't mean it didn't cost more. Some times I can't see why something is the way it is. That doesn't mean it isn't, it just means I can't see it.

sal
fair enough. i tried to word my post carefully, which i take it you caught on to based on your answer. i believe it cost more to make, but i don't believe it's priced competitively, even within your own lineup. that's what this thread was about and i was just trying to bring it back since it lost it's way in praise and justifications trying to negate the point. even if it cost more to manufacture, it's not wrong for a customer to point out that it doesn't seem to fit.

i'm sure you are trying to lower manufacturing costs. i'm sure every business is constantly doing that. but does that mean that next year the shaman will only be $160 if that endeavor is a success? i seriously doubt we'll ever see our price go down and i wouldn't expect to. instead, it will continue to rise in price along with all the other models, even if the manufacturing costs go down. i'm not going to fault you for that, but bringing up the attempt to reduce costs makes little difference to the consumer in this case.

i appreciate that you all listen to your customers and i love that you are active here on the forum and engaged in conversations like this that are not pleasant. i'm really not trying to dump on you or your company. i seriously enjoy your products and bought my fair share of them in the last couple of years since coming back to spyderco. i'm just trying to have an objective conversation.

Mom3ntuM
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Mom3ntuM » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:22 pm

TomAiello wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:35 pm
Mom3ntuM wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:03 pm
8 $ per hour?
Is it possible to live on that?
It's certainly possible to live on $8/hr where I am. It's on the low end, but it's still a livable wage in some places.
There is a difference in living and surviving. :)
13. 000$ a year
Would you be able to afford a house/appartment, car, food and clothes on that wage.
Where i live that would barely cover my foodbudget
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today.
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ZrowsN1s
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:22 pm

I own a P'kal, Yojimbo, Manix, Para Military, and Shaman. Long story short, I like the Shaman the most by a good margin. The price difference kept me from trying it at first, but after owning one, I say it is worth the price difference.

While Im open to the idea of paying less for a Shaman if Sal can find a way to bring costs down, I hope that doesn't mean lowering the quality at all. This knife is darn near perfect, and I would hate to see it changed because some people are reluctant to buy it at it's current price.
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby The Meat man » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:28 pm

Mom3ntuM wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:22 pm
...13. 000$ a year...

$13,000/year divided by $8/hour equals 6.5 hour work days. That's a pretty short work day.
- Connor

"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

Mom3ntuM
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Mom3ntuM » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:32 pm

It's short,, but you dont work every day do you.. At least here in Norway we take saturday and sunday off.. And 4-5 weeks of vacation.. :)
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today.
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Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:35 pm

Norway is sounding nice too.

Mom3ntuM
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Mom3ntuM » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:36 pm

It's not that Nice
😂
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Mom3ntuM
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Mom3ntuM » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:08 pm

I was actually a little bit off, i took 1600 hours a year and rounded up to 13.000, but doing a little research i found 1695 - 1725 hours to be correct(going by what is considered standard in Norway. 7.5 hour x 226-230 work days per year) , so its 13.560 - 13.800$, but you probably get paid for vacation and hollidays, i didnt take that into the equation.
It's been a while since I've been employed. What would you eastimate the yearly income amount to with 8 $ per hour?
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today.
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Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:23 pm

So a good Spyderco is still a fine luxury is it not?

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Bill1170 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:25 pm

wrdwrght wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:38 pm
SpyderEdgeForever wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:08 pm
60 years of personal touch
“60 years of personal touch”, indeed.

And, oh, BTW, designs in the year 5 and in the year 55 don’t carry the same weight.

Got the actual thread reference?
This comment about 60 years of personal touch was posted by Sal, earlier in this very thread. I’m not sure if that is what you wanted to know.


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