Hard truths and observations

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Hopweaver
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Hopweaver » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:16 pm

sal wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:59 pm
rgrad80 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:41 pm
it’s too easy to get knives made of much higher quality materials with outstanding new designs.
If you say so?

sal
Touché!
This made me LOL for real. :)
One of the classics for sure.
:spyder: Make time for the important things in life, and learn to enjoy the little things more. :spyder:

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ferider
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby ferider » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:28 pm

Interesting thread.

A couple of random thoughts:

1) the pricing elephant in the room is this: anybody here who has more than a couple of pocket knives (me included) purchases knives as luxury goods. Regarding luxury good marketing and pricing, quality and materials are only remotly correlated to price of goods. You can google it; or you can check with your better half: does she rather use a designer purse from Europe or from China ?

2)
Eli Chaps wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:08 pm
First, to everyone who keeps dismissing the Chinese as cheap, bad service, questionable quality, etc. I would strongly recommend you reconsider your position. Yes, those things can be true, but the Chinese figured this out about 20 years ago. Today, many companies are deeply committed to meeting and surpassing the quality and service provided by other countries, namely the USA. It is happening across a broad spectrum of industries. Believe me, I know and it is a constant concern in my industry as well. They aren't just coming, they are here.
This is very true. And worrisome if you combine it with currency control and military expansion.

3)
sal wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am
Pricing is always an issue, but we don't deviate too much from what we need as margins. The concept that we just "charge as much as the market will bear", while considered normal pragmatic pricing in business is not a philosophy we embrace.
I very much respect this. One of the best reasons to buy Spyderco, IMO.

Roland.

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sal
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby sal » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Daveho wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:00 pm
sal wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am

Competing against Chinese makers would not be difficult if the value of the Chinese currency was more in line with current global practices. Our tolerances are closer. The steels we use are more pure, our designs are well thought out and based more often on function than eye appeal, etc.

We consider competitors like; Buck, Benchmade, Kershaw, CRK, Cold Steel, etc. to more more fair in a Global market.

sal
Could you clarify what you mean by “steels are more pure” I’m curious as I had thought that if you buy a steel from Carpenter or crucible if it’s a named steel like S35vn those companies would be supplying the same steel to those who ordered it and the difference would’ve been in the heat treat.

I'm referring to Steel made in China. I think they'll improve, as they do with most things, but Chinese upper end steel is not there yet.

sal

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby cbrstar » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:28 pm

The problem with this post is it's really a matter of perspective.

In the OP's situation I bet if he was buying the knife for the first time for himself he could easily justify the $200. It wouldn't even be an issue. But because he's buying it for a co-worker suddenly $200 is going to feel like a lot more money as he's giving it away.
I imagine there's quite a few thoughts going through his head like "What if they don't like or use the knife?" Or "what if they reject it after I spent all this cash?" There can be a lot of anxiety when you gift something especially if you are unsure they will appreciate it"

I can't help but think the OP's brain is telling him subconsciously to buy a less expensive gift.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:06 pm

sal wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:47 pm
Daveho wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:00 pm
sal wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am

Competing against Chinese makers would not be difficult if the value of the Chinese currency was more in line with current global practices. Our tolerances are closer. The steels we use are more pure, our designs are well thought out and based more often on function than eye appeal, etc.

We consider competitors like; Buck, Benchmade, Kershaw, CRK, Cold Steel, etc. to more more fair in a Global market.

sal
Could you clarify what you mean by “steels are more pure” I’m curious as I had thought that if you buy a steel from Carpenter or crucible if it’s a named steel like S35vn those companies would be supplying the same steel to those who ordered it and the difference would’ve been in the heat treat.

I'm referring to Steel made in China. I think they'll improve, as they do with most things, but Chinese upper end steel is not there yet.

sal
Was U.S. Steel for high end exacting Spyderco standards like that in the Late 1970's and early 1980's? I ask because it occurred to me in another thread concerning the Hunter knife from around 1981 ( Which has CQI Evolved into the Superb Stretch2) the steel was a Japanese G2 steel. I had no idea Spyderco had such a long relationship with Hitachi steel.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby mattman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:14 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:06 pm

Was U.S. Steel for high end exacting Spyderco standards like that in the Late 1970's and early 1980's? I ask because it occurred to me in another thread concerning the Hunter knife from around 1981 ( Which has CQI Evolved into the Superb Stretch2) the steel was a Japanese G2 steel. I had no idea Spyderco had such a long relationship with Hitachi steel.
I don't think they were producing any knives in the US at that time, therefore they used what Seki suggested/could source.

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sal
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby sal » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:18 pm

We began making knives in Seki with a maker introduced to us by Al Mar. Production began in 1981. We used Hitachi and Aichi steel early on, then gravitated to more Japanese foundries. We began making knives in the US in the early 90's and used US steel. Crucible at the time. We also imported a few steels.

sal

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:33 pm

sal wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:18 pm
We began making knives in Seki with a maker introduced to us by Al Mar. Production began in 1981. We used Hitachi and Aichi steel early on, then gravitated to more Japanese foundries. We began making knives in the US in the early 90's and used US steel. Crucible at the time. We also imported a few steels.

sal
Thanks Sal Love the history lessons.

Speaking of Which I have really enjoyed the videos I have seen of you and Eric talking about Spyderco's history I for one would love to see a really en-depth up to date one with both of you.

Oh and speaking of Videos I sold a sharp-maker to my barber after showing him your old demonstration video for the sharpmaker sharpening sheers. He said well that will pay for itself really quick instead of paying $20.00 per pair every time the sharpening guy shows up?

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Daveho » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:24 pm

sal wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:47 pm
Daveho wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:00 pm
sal wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:44 am

Competing against Chinese makers would not be difficult if the value of the Chinese currency was more in line with current global practices. Our tolerances are closer. The steels we use are more pure, our designs are well thought out and based more often on function than eye appeal, etc.

We consider competitors like; Buck, Benchmade, Kershaw, CRK, Cold Steel, etc. to more more fair in a Global market.

sal
Could you clarify what you mean by “steels are more pure” I’m curious as I had thought that if you buy a steel from Carpenter or crucible if it’s a named steel like S35vn those companies would be supplying the same steel to those who ordered it and the difference would’ve been in the heat treat.

I'm referring to Steel made in China. I think they'll improve, as they do with most things, but Chinese upper end steel is not there yet.

sal
Makes sense since they keep using American steels I suppose

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby colin.p » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:13 pm

ferider wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:28 pm

1) the pricing elephant in the room is this: anybody here who has more than a couple of pocket knives (me included) purchases knives as luxury goods. Regarding luxury good marketing and pricing, quality and materials are only remotely correlated to price of goods.

Roland.
Ah, I was hoping someone would bring this painfully obvious point to the fore.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby ThePeacent » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:58 am

wrdwrght wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:11 pm

Why have I been here for 8 years?

Because I prize trustworthiness over most things and have seen NOTHING to betray my trust in the Spyderco crew.
The appearance of Spydies I can’t or won’t buy because of cost (there are and have been quite a few) is NOT a metric I use to gauge trustworthiness.

I have read the entire thread, yes, but in brief: you NAILED it for me :o

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:44 pm

the whole point of this thread is that the price for the shaman is outrageous. lots of people feel that way. a few online reviewers made update videos saying they thought it was a good value when they purchased them, but now not so much. and that was before the 2019 increase.
you all can jump on the spyderco praise train and talk about how you love and trust the company, but it doesn’t make the shaman any more of a value. and say what you want about materials not mattering or chinese companies not being reliable, but when spyderco offers knives with the same materials and quality from the same factory for much less, those arguments start falling apart. are the pm2 and manix (i know the manix has a different lock, but it’s design is more similar) supposed to be more budget friendly versions of the shaman from the same factory with the same materials?

my point is that it is an uncomfortable amount more expensive considering the factors we can see, and maybe the love for the company is coloring the opinions of the devoted followers here. you can still love the shaman and spyderco and think that it costs too much for what it is. i do. i’ll just stick with the manix, which is more comfortable to my hand and wallet.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:17 pm

Price is reasonable to me.

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Pelagic
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Pelagic » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:38 pm

I truly think the vast majority of the prices are reasonable. It's just some that are too high for the steel. If the Shaman or the Subvert, for example, came in M4, I don't think anyone would be complaining.
Pancake wrote:
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You are a nobody got it?

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Diamondback » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:45 pm

ladybug93 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:44 pm
the whole point of this thread is that the price for the shaman is outrageous. lots of people feel that way. a few online reviewers made update videos saying they thought it was a good value when they purchased them, but now not so much. and that was before the 2019 increase.
you all can jump on the spyderco praise train and talk about how you love and trust the company, but it doesn’t make the shaman any more of a value. and say what you want about materials not mattering or chinese companies not being reliable, but when spyderco offers knives with the same materials and quality from the same factory for much less, those arguments start falling apart. are the pm2 and manix (i know the manix has a different lock, but it’s design is more similar) supposed to be more budget friendly versions of the shaman from the same factory with the same materials?

my point is that it is an uncomfortable amount more expensive considering the factors we can see, and maybe the love for the company is coloring the opinions of the devoted followers here. you can still love the shaman and spyderco and think that it costs too much for what it is. i do. i’ll just stick with the manix, which is more comfortable to my hand and wallet.
....it seems you have decided what is best for you. Good job. If you can't afford a knife or think it doesn't represent value for your dollar, don't buy it. It's not rocket science.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:52 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:38 pm
I truly think the vast majority of the prices are reasonable. It's just some that are too high for the steel. If the Shaman or the Subvert, for example, came in M4, I don't think anyone would be complaining.
yes. i've made this point before. the shaman is priced like it's a sprint or a more special steel than s30v. the price isn't the problem; the value is. but everyone here is acting like it's no big deal that the shaman is somehow $50 more for the same materials. you may justify that price difference to yourself because you really want the shaman, but no one is actually happy that it exists in the first place.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby ladybug93 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:58 pm

Diamondback wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:45 pm
....it seems you have decided what is best for you. Good job. If you can't afford a knife or think it doesn't represent value for your dollar, don't buy it. It's not rocket science.
correct. it's not rocket science and i'm perfectly happy with the knives that i have. i didn't post here to complain. i posted to point out that the op has a point and many here are just ignoring it or making excuses for spyderco. if the shaman is worth it to you, then buy it and be happy with it.

vivi
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby vivi » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:58 pm

The rounded scales of the Shaman make it cost more to make compared to similar designs using the same materials. Something to consider.

IIRC the Temp 3 sells for a similar price while being smaller and having regular scales.
Current carry rotation:

Pacific Salt 2 LC200N | Manix XL M4 DLC | Manix C95 foliage green | Aqua Salt

wrdwrght
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby wrdwrght » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:04 pm

ladybug93 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:44 pm
you all can jump on the spyderco praise train and talk about how you love and trust the company, but it doesn’t make the shaman any more of a value. and say what you want about materials not mattering or chinese companies not being reliable, but when spyderco offers knives with the same materials and quality i’ll just stick with the manix, which is more comfortable to my hand and wallet.
The bang-for-buck argument turns on how much of a buck you’re willing to part with.

If you’d rather buy a Manix2 instead of a Shaman (you’re hardly doing yourself a disservice), you could go further and buy a Tenacious instead of a Manix2 (and still not do yourself a disservice).

Some have justified the Shaman’s higher (than a Manix2) cost; you have justified the Manix2’s higher (than a Tenacious) cost. Nothing wrong with that.

I got a Shaman neither because it was somehow a value-proposition, nor because I trust Spyderco (though I do trust Spyderco never to turn out a crap knife, and always to offer a compelling range of knives). I paid the “extra” dollars less because I could afford it, and more because the knife’s COST-INDUCING refinements of ordinary materials (not to forget the design itself) appealed to me.

You’re doing the same with the Manix2.

As I said, it’s all about the buck you’re willing to part with.

This thread amounts to a complaint about the attack on our thresholds, and nothing more than that. I thought it was a given that we all hate paying more.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:08 pm

Hey boys and girls, I'm with sal:

" I see a design like the Shaman as a physical embodiment of tens of thousands of years of history, hundreds of years of design and technology, 60 years of personal touch, the result of hundreds of hours to form, hundreds of hands and minds to build. Yeah, you got. "It's just a knife"

sal "

AMEN brother!

If you think titanium is incredible, wait until you see tritanium ;)

The way I look at it: One Spyderco knife is made of such quality and with such history and forethought involved, that it is easilly worth more than ten to one hundred non-Spyderco knives.


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