Hard truths and observations

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:44 am

I Think the FRN Para3 will become a hit and a perineal favorite. Here is why.

1.FRN is not just light weight but strong and tough wish it had full liners like the Stretch2. Linerless FRN that I own Pacific Salt 1 has up and down blade play but that may be more due to the back lock without liners. Stretch and stretch 2 have it also but far less with full liners and the G-10 version least of all so chalking it up to back locks.

2. Compression lock should work well here can’t see why it would not. And May alleviate afore mentioned issues.

3. Handle shape very much like the Stretch series which is a great handle.

4. CTS-BD1N Steel everything I have read compares it to VG10 and that is an automatic winner in my experience. It is supposed to be more corrosion resistant and hold a working edge like S30V yet sharpen easy like VG10. What is not to love?

5. Blade and 50/50 choil can do with a choil and choose not to use it but when you really want control can’t do with out. Some will oddly consider this a negative? Oh well.

6. Deep carry wire clip. Very nice!

Looks Like Eric has thought this one out pretty good and while I will not buy a Delica at any price This one is a must have.

I own an Endura4 the handle alone is no where near as good as the Stretch nor this upcoming Para3 and prefer larger blades so a shorter Endura (Delica) versus this well thought out Para3 for a few dollars more? Hah easy decision Para3 me with FRN and CTS-BD1 Steel please. Er uhmmm make that 2 please need a beater and a backup!
Last edited by Doeswhateveraspidercan on Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Pelagic
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Pelagic » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:47 am

BD1N holds a working edge like s30v? Interesting. Has anyone else experienced this? I would think it would have to have higher hardness to compete with s30v.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
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Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
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Eli Chaps
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Eli Chaps » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:47 am

For me, Spyderco has always represented the well-built, blue collar, line up. They always had their upper echelon knives and along the way the lower budget series, but it was that middle tier that attracted me. I don't need super steels, I like simple locks, and FRN/FRCP are just fine for me in a pocket knife for EDC tasks. So the Delica, Dragonfly, Manix 2 and those types were my attraction. While none of them was exactly what I was looking for, their build quality and price points overcame those things and I was able to look past them. I bought Spyderco folders exclusively for a decade.

But, as the prices have moved up, especially in the past few years, so too does the competition open up and my tolerance for compromises goes down. For my personal tastes, there are waaaaay to many models with forward finger choils. I simply do not use a finger choil in 90% of my cutting tasks and because the handle is generally designed around them, when I choke back on the main handle, it feels odd and uncomfortable. At $50 for a D'fly 2? Not a big deal. At $62? Well, now it's an issue.

I don't like stamped clips. At $60-65 for a Delica, maybe I'm okay with that. At $78 and all the other options out there? Nope, I'm not okay with that any more. I've been waiting on a BD1N M2LW ever since Sal first mentioned it, but at almost $100 and already owning a couple? Probably gonna look elsewhere. At $200? Well, no, there is nothing in the line up, that would get me to look away from other offerings. These are EDC pocket knives for me. Since I'm not hung up on steel type, a lot of great options become available above the $150 threshold. That's where I start wanting form and function to really come together and I can find exotic woods, hand filing, and so on. That's a price point that for me, represents as much pure pleasure as performance and there's lots of options out there that don't require you to sacrifice either.

I'm not quibbling about whether or not the prices are fair or justified. I'm just accepting what is presented to me and for me, it is getting harder not to stray. And no, I don't have to look to China.

Spyderco seems to be chasing the sprints and exclusives thing and targeting a different market than I represent. That's cool and I sincerely wish them nothing but the best and tremendous success.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:50 am

Pelagic wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:47 am
BD1N holds a working edge like s30v? Interesting. Has anyone else experienced this? I would think it would have to have higher hardness to compete with s30v.
Here is a link to some conversations: as usual with Steel it is all over the place;)

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/cts ... 8.1117549/
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Pelagic
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Pelagic » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:53 am

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:50 am
Pelagic wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:47 am
BD1N holds a working edge like s30v? Interesting. Has anyone else experienced this? I would think it would have to have higher hardness to compete with s30v.
Here is a link to some conversations: as usual with Steel it is all over the place;)

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/cts ... 8.1117549/
Most of the posts there say it doesn't compare to s30v. I personally don't know, I've only used Cold Steel's BD1 so I can't say anything with certainty.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:54 am

I may have misread the working edge being equal to S30V too many pages open on a phone
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Posts: 1745
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:23 am

Pelagic wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:53 am
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:50 am
Pelagic wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:47 am
BD1N holds a working edge like s30v? Interesting. Has anyone else experienced this? I would think it would have to have higher hardness to compete with s30v.
Here is a link to some conversations: as usual with Steel it is all over the place;)

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/cts ... 8.1117549/
Most of the posts there say it doesn't compare to s30v. I personally don't know, I've only used Cold Steel's BD1 so I can't say anything with certainty.
What have your experiences with the steel been even though it is not Spydercos production of it?
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Pelagic
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Pelagic » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:07 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:23 am
Pelagic wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:53 am
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:50 am
Pelagic wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:47 am
BD1N holds a working edge like s30v? Interesting. Has anyone else experienced this? I would think it would have to have higher hardness to compete with s30v.
Here is a link to some conversations: as usual with Steel it is all over the place;)

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/cts ... 8.1117549/
Most of the posts there say it doesn't compare to s30v. I personally don't know, I've only used Cold Steel's BD1 so I can't say anything with certainty.
What have your experiences with the steel been even though it is not Spydercos production of it?
No complaints. It has less than 1% carbon and no carbide formers other than chromium, so I didn't expect the world. Especially on a $50 voyager. Gets sharp extremely easily, edge holding is acceptable considering. I think with the right heat treat it could be better than your average vg-10.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

MissingMontana
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby MissingMontana » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:08 pm

I've patiently read through all 9 (so far) pages of this thread.
I've currently own Spyderco Knives since the early 90's. Excellent products. Excellent Customer service.

I think Eli Chaps comment about Spyderco being the Blue Collar working man's folder is bang on. The key words are "used to be".
With the markets being the way they are, price increases will eventually force some buyers out of that particular market.

In my mind, Spyderco has slowly changed their marketing plan, releasing high value / low quantity sprint runs. This creates a demand for an "exclusive", and with low numbers produced, usually sell out relatively quickly.
The well-known base models have slowly crept upwards in price, and as Eli noted, Spyderco has now entered a different market segment.

The Made in China arguement appears to depend on percieved value: there are those who will support China by purchasing a Chinese made Spyderco which everyone agrees can't be produced at the same manufacturing cost in the US.
If you really wanted to only support US manufacturing, then only buy US goods that are manufactured domestically.
The same can be said for vehicles made in Mexico.....sorry....I digress.

Agree with it or not, Spyderco's marketing plan has adapted and changed to market forces....some customers will be forced out due to price factors, Spyderco may gain a new market share based on an increased perceived value at this higher level.

Consumers vote with their dollars. Judging by the reaction earlier, some are already out or nearly priced out of the Spyderco target market. There will always be the collector who "must have" the latest and greatest offering.

Only time will tell which consumer Spyderco is most successful with.
North of 49

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:09 pm

Well said but I think Spyderco is still covering different segments quite well they have everything from under $100.00 which may I remind everyone has far less buying power than they may think!

Take a run at this inflation calendar from when Spyderco started selling knives in 1981

http://www.in2013dollars.com/1981-dollars-in-2018

$100.00 U.S. back then is equal to $276.25 today.

Or let’s take a look at 1995 100.00 then is $164.77 so while it looks like prices are creeping up they are actually being held remarkably stable by Spyderco in comparison with not only inflation but many other global factors as well.

Lets take a $50.00 knife from 1995 comes to $82.33 so reality is we are not getting the buying power we used to for dollar by dollar comparisons with the past.

Sal has done and is doing a fine job keeping his products truly affordable and deserves more credit for that than he is receiving.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Wartstein
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Wartstein » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:17 pm

Speaking about trust in a manufacturer: When Spyderco increased the price for the shaman above the prices of materialwise comparable other models, I without thinking too much assumed that there must be a plausible reason for it and was ok with it. That´s just a consequence of the overall trustworthy picture Spyderco managed to establish for me (others may feel different). I am generally not at all a person who blindly believes in things or is or likes to be easily misled. But here from everything I can see I just don´t feel that this could be the case.

Still: I have not decided yet if I can and will lay down the money for a shaman in the nearer future, and sure it would be an easier decision if it was 50 dollar less. But that doesn´t change that I personally think it is worth the current price. And THAT again doesn´t change that I respect anyone who may feel different... ;)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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sal
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby sal » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:58 pm

Hi Montana,

Eli's comments, yours and the original post, as well as many in the past nine pages have provided much valuable information. We have been aware of the changes in manufacturing as well as the changes in the marketplace over the past 40 years.

Thanx for walking through the nine pages. It's time consuming for sure, and we appreciate that kind of interest. We began making knives in Japan. The Yen was weaker than the dollar. ( 240-330 Yen to $1.00 ) Stronger than the Chinese Yuan, but a definite advantage in being able to provide a very good quality product made from very good quality material at a competitive price. Our design philosophy was, and still is primarily the Blue collar worker. And most of the design that Eric and I create fall into that category of form follows function.

Now the Yen, Euro and Dollar are very close. Light weights became our "Blue collar knife". At the same time, our market expanded in areas we didn't expect. People, for some reason, began to collect our knives. We're selling to an international market. Now we're trying to serve the "blue collar worker" and the collector. Two entirely different groups. Then you add the Steel Junky's and the plot thickens.

Chinese OEM became a way to create those more affordable knives. We produce many models in China but we really don't want to make all of our knives in China, and now the Chinese knife makers have improved a great deal and they are competition, with the price advantage.

As our costs go up from domestic, and overseas partners, we reach that threshold of; do we retain the quality and raise the price or do we lower the quality. As we continue to try to improve our products (closer tolerances and more exotic materials ), we struggle with those decisions with every model. In the future, you will see more light weights, which is an effective way to reduce costs and still provide bullet proof product. You won't see as many machined G-10 pilot runs because they have become too expensive for the "Blue collar" market. The collector market will still want the higher end designs, collaboration designs and exotic steels/materials, which will quite often be priced out of the market for the blue collar market.

Hope that helps.

While threads like this one are stressful, they are important and I do read and think about every word.

sal

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby dogrunner » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:36 pm

One other thought - the "blue collar" models and the sprint / "higher-end" and more expensive models might fit different market segments, but the buyers might overlap a lot. Why else would so many (everyone?) be excited by a PM3 LW? I buy knives to use (or because I think I will). I am not a collector, but I suppose I am an accumulator. I am always looking for better performance, which means something different to different people. I got into knife buying in a more intentional way in the early '80s. At that time ATS34 and then 154cm were the hotrod steels and 440C was the lower end among the stainless steels, at least. Liner locks were a new thing and found on premium knives. I want knives that cut well, that have durable edges (no chipping), blades that don't break, and I don't like stopping to sharpen or have the patience for long sharpening sessions. I hated 440C! As time went on I continued buying knives because new steels, designs, locks, were becoming available and I had enough income to try new things sometimes. We are in a "Golden" age of steels and lock designs now (pun intended). So it is easy to satisfy the functional tool itch with "lower" end models, but I have also gotten used to top-level steels. I also do not always want to use my best knives for every chore. So I have toolbox knives, car knives, go-to-town knives, and the "higher-end" knives that I edc (almost all production, except a few custom fixed blades). I have both and I have enough of both that I don't feel like I need to jump on every new thing that comes out. VG10 Delicas to Maxamet PM2, with a lot in between. Mostly just with occasional purchases, but I still end up with more than most sane people :) and a lot of variety.

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Pelagic
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Pelagic » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:55 pm

Thanks for taking the time to respond so much Sal.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:06 pm

Thanks Sal.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Posts: 1745
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:31 pm

Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:11 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:54 am
I may have misread the working edge being equal to S30V too many pages open on a phone
I made a big mistake.

CTS-BD1 is not what the new Para3 is using.

It is using CTS-BD1N

From ZK Knies App

CTS BD1N

C: 0.80-0.95; Cr: 15.00-17.00; Mo: 0.50;
Mn: 1.00; N: 0.10-0.15; P: 0.000-0.030;
S: 0.000-0.010; Si: 1.00;

Maker: Carpenter - United States (US)

Notes:
CTS BD1N - CTS-BD1N is a high Carbon, high Chromium, Nitrogen martensitic stainless steel. Can be hardened in oil or air. CTS-BD1N was designed as an improvement or an evolution of the Carpenter CTS-BD1 stainless steel, which was also used in knives. Overall, CTS-BD1N has higher working hardness compared to CTS-BD1 steel, up to 63HRC. The most notable difference between CTS-BD1N and CTS-BD1 steel is the Nitrogen. To be more precise, or at least according to the official specifications, 0.10% Vanadium present in CTS-BD1 steel is gone from CTS-BD1N, and instead we have 0.10%-0.15% Nitrogen. While it may look about the same amount, in reality 0.10% Nitrogen will produce almost 4 times more atoms than Vanadium due to its smaller molar mass. Vanadium is a welcome addition to any steel, but to be honest I am not sure if it's completely gone from CTS-BD1N, because in other alloys 0.10% Vanadium is considered trace amount or unintentional. On top of that, CTS-BD1N has more Chromium, Manganese and Silicon in its composition. Anyhow, if CTS-BD1N contained or retained that Vanadium it'd not hurt for sure. Overall, CTS-BD1N is a very decent candidate for a knife blade, fine grained steel, with high corrosion resistance and respectable edge holding ability. At max hardness CTS-BD1N can sustain high polished, 12°-15° per side edge.


Cross-References:
Known Aliases:
BD1N
CTS-BD1N
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Posts: 1745
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:14 pm

CTS-BD1N
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

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Pelagic
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Pelagic » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:16 pm

Amazing how these days they still call under 1% "high carbon" (see zdp, 15v, MPL-1, almost anything spyderco offers, etc)
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:19 pm

S30V
6DE841B6-7583-4324-BC40-79509C0CAC63.png
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

Eli Chaps
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Posts: 505
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Eli Chaps » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:06 pm

sal wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:58 pm

...

While threads like this one are stressful, they are important and I do read and think about every word.

sal
Sal,

I think I can safely speak for many when I say you are huge factor in why many of us continue to or want to continue to support Spyderco. I believe in brand loyalty as much as I can and am always willing to pay a little more for good service and good folks.

Now, you design a no-choil, no-finger-bump, slightly curved FRN or FRCP handled, wire clipped, 2.75"-3", 2mm BD1 or similar blade and my eyes will definitely light up! Sorta a smoothed out Delica or a stretched Chaparral. :eek: :D

Thanks for all you do Sal and I do not envy the position you folks find yourselves in.


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