Hard truths and observations

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
rgrad80
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Hard truths and observations

Postby rgrad80 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:41 pm

I went to my go to online retailer to purchase the DLC Shaman for my coworker as a birthday present...and noticed it costs over $200 now! Needless to say, I went a different direction. I own a Shaman and I love it. I was able to get mine for a very deep discount when a retailer miss priced them last year, but $200? For g10 and S30v? No thanks...and I’m confident many people who had the Shaman on the stong “maybe” list, just crossed it off the list completely.

A few of the Chinese makers are manufacturing outstanding quality knives with perfectly heat treaded super steels...well under $200. So, for the price of a stock PM2 or Shaman, someone can get an outstanding quality/fit/finish, full titanium knife with M390. Truth. The new prices also now put Spyderco in line with a lot of other US makers who will continue to dominate and devour the market share.
I’m always going to be a fan of the Spyderco brand, mostly because I believe Sal is a stand up guy. At the current prices, it’s too easy to get knives made of much higher quality materials with outstanding new designs.
Days without buying a Spyderco: 35

You always have a choice.

500Nitro
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby 500Nitro » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:54 pm

rgrad80 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:41 pm
A few of the Chinese makers are manufacturing outstanding quality knives with perfectly heat treaded super steels...well under $200.
Yes they do, but here's a few hard truths as well.

It's hard for companies like Spyderco (and others) to make knives in the US and other places and pay decent wages etc etc

Then you have the consumer (you and many others) want cheaper prices - but on the other hand, in different places
scream about wanting pay rise, higher wages, more, better paying jobs .............

A lesson I learnt last year - I unload and organise unloading of containers of asian food / drinks etc for a Vietnamese
Chinese owner of a company. The containers and the way they were packed was not thought out and messy.
I asked him if they can palletize the stock and or be more organised in how they pack stuff in.
His answer - he'll ask but probably not because it's cheaper paying someone 2 cents an hour to pack it anyway and get more in
than palletise ir or sort it out.

So, things in every country would be cheaper IF we had the wages and working / living conditions of the Chinese.
No thanks. I was shocked when I went to the US and saw minimum wages for Nevada were like $8 an hour,
imagine being told you will be paid cnets not $$$.

But I'll pay the slightly higher price and maybe spend a bit less / buy a couple less knives but have Spyderco around
than the alternative.

Apologise for the rant but put things in perspective.
3 x Endura 1 SE, 1 x Endura ? CE and a Black Pacific Salt. Want Aqua Salt, Fish Hunter and a Pacific Salt Yellow.

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sal
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby sal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:59 pm

rgrad80 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:41 pm
it’s too easy to get knives made of much higher quality materials with outstanding new designs.
If you say so?

sal

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Mom3ntuM
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Mom3ntuM » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:03 pm

8 $ per hour?
Is it possible to live on that?
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today.
James Dean

500Nitro
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby 500Nitro » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:05 pm

Mom3ntuM wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:03 pm
8 $ per hour?
Is it possible to live on that?
LOL, it doesn't surprise me to see that a lot in the US can't live on it.

Our minimum here in Oz is $18.97 or something like that and that's borderline for any renter
unless they work excessive hours or have 2 jobs.
3 x Endura 1 SE, 1 x Endura ? CE and a Black Pacific Salt. Want Aqua Salt, Fish Hunter and a Pacific Salt Yellow.

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Mom3ntuM
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Mom3ntuM » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:09 pm

500Nitro wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:05 pm
Mom3ntuM wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:03 pm
8 $ per hour?
Is it possible to live on that?
LOL, it doesn't surprise me to see that a lot in the US can't live on it.

Our minimum here in Oz is $18.97 or something like that and that's borderline for any renter
unless they work excessive hours or have 2 jobs.
Is that in ozzydollars or American :P
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today.
James Dean

500Nitro
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby 500Nitro » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:17 pm

Ozzie $$$

Exchange rate is 0.7 sg the moment. So US $13.27.

Cost of things here way more than US.



To the OP
If it’s that easy to design and make a knife for less, market it, distribute it AND live off it, do it.
3 x Endura 1 SE, 1 x Endura ? CE and a Black Pacific Salt. Want Aqua Salt, Fish Hunter and a Pacific Salt Yellow.

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Zatx
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Zatx » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:22 pm

rgrad80 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:41 pm
I went to my go to online retailer to purchase the DLC Shaman for my coworker as a birthday present...and noticed it costs over $200 now! Needless to say, I went a different direction. I own a Shaman and I love it. I was able to get mine for a very deep discount when a retailer miss priced them last year, but $200? For g10 and S30v? No thanks...and I’m confident many people who had the Shaman on the stong “maybe” list, just crossed it off the list completely.

A few of the Chinese makers are manufacturing outstanding quality knives with perfectly heat treaded super steels...well under $200. So, for the price of a stock PM2 or Shaman, someone can get an outstanding quality/fit/finish, full titanium knife with M390. Truth. The new prices also now put Spyderco in line with a lot of other US makers who will continue to dominate and devour the market share.
I’m always going to be a fan of the Spyderco brand, mostly because I believe Sal is a stand up guy. At the current prices, it’s too easy to get knives made of much higher quality materials with outstanding new designs.

Here's an observation and a truth based on your own words -

You admit to taking advantage of a retailer who missed priced an item to obtain a Shaman much cheaper than it should have sold and were apparently perfectly okay with that...well... because you did it. You then see that the Shaman sells for $200 at your favorite retailer and then come here to make a post that implies that Spyderco is... what? Taking advantage of people by selling an S30V knife with G-10 scales for $200?

I also observe highly passive-aggressive tendencies on your part. You say, "I'm always going to be fan... Sal is a stand-up guy," and then, "it's easy to get much higher quality" knives.

Dude, I think you really need to work on yourself before you go pointing fingers at others. Maybe you should talk to someone?

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Evil D
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Evil D » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:24 pm

Honestly man this sounds more like hard opinions and speculations to me. The reality of knife buying is that even $100 is a lot of money for a pocket knife when you can get a Svord Peasant or Opinel for under $20 that will do any reasonable knife task, so at the current price point we're already waste deep in diminishing returns anyway.

I think if CRK can continue selling the same knife for 20+ years for $400+ that's "only titanium and S30V/35VN" then Spyderco will be fine. Yeah I know all about the ridiculous machining that goes into those knives, that's exactly the point...they're more than the sum of their parts. If you boil down everything to their base ingredients you'll always find something to be upset about.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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sal
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby sal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:27 pm

These are just my opinions/ramblings and not here for argument.

Wages in general are an interesting study. From a social psychology point of view. A constant "yin-Yang". Many businesses have their own points of view on this concept world wide. One point of view says; "keep costs as low as possible to maximize profit". Another says; "Pay your people as much as you can so you can keep them". "If you can't keep your good people, you are always training and you never get good".

The Chinese Yuan is 6/1 to the US dollar so one US dollar in China is now worth $6.00

$8.00 per hour is a joke to try to live on. That's the maximize profit part of the equation. Even $15.00 per hour is challenging for survival.

Somewhere between the concepts there is a balance, but it's really hard to find and maintain. A capitalistic leaning drives harder....but many end up with less. A socialistic leaning destroys incentive so most end up with less. Employee owned business seem like a good solution, but most fail?

'Tis a puzzlement?

sal

rgrad80
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby rgrad80 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:31 pm

Zatx wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:22 pm
rgrad80 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:41 pm
I went to my go to online retailer to purchase the DLC Shaman for my coworker as a birthday present...and noticed it costs over $200 now! Needless to say, I went a different direction. I own a Shaman and I love it. I was able to get mine for a very deep discount when a retailer miss priced them last year, but $200? For g10 and S30v? No thanks...and I’m confident many people who had the Shaman on the stong “maybe” list, just crossed it off the list completely.

A few of the Chinese makers are manufacturing outstanding quality knives with perfectly heat treaded super steels...well under $200. So, for the price of a stock PM2 or Shaman, someone can get an outstanding quality/fit/finish, full titanium knife with M390. Truth. The new prices also now put Spyderco in line with a lot of other US makers who will continue to dominate and devour the market share.
I’m always going to be a fan of the Spyderco brand, mostly because I believe Sal is a stand up guy. At the current prices, it’s too easy to get knives made of much higher quality materials with outstanding new designs.

Here's an observation and a truth based on your own words -

You admit to taking advantage of a retailer who missed priced an item to obtain a Shaman much cheaper than it should have sold and were apparently perfectly okay with that...well... because you did it. You then see that the Shaman sells for $200 at your favorite retailer and then come here to make a post that implies that Spyderco is... what? Taking advantage of people by selling an S30V knife with G-10 scales for $200?

I also observe highly passive-aggressive tendencies on your part. You say, "I'm always going to be fan... Sal is a stand-up guy," and then, "it's easy to get much higher quality" knives.

Dude, I think you really need to work on yourself before you go pointing fingers at others. Maybe you should talk to someone?
The retailer was Cabelas, and the “sale” was actually alerted on this forum;)

I didn’t mean to trigger you or hurt your feelings, these are just my thoughts on recent events.

It’s also totally possible to be a big fan of someone’s work AND point out observations many people are talking about outside the Spyderco forum bubble.
Thanks for your kind suggestions at the end...epic “shinny footprints”🙄
Days without buying a Spyderco: 35

You always have a choice.

Daveho
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Daveho » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:35 pm

Before this thread gets derailed with random blind nationalism, yes, it’s true that international makers can deliver exceptional quality and value, the budget line from WE like the 809 practic in m390 or the 8 million titanium frame lock flippers in S35vn from kizer.
most brands now seem to be relying on collaborations to fill catalogs and as a result we are seeing a lot of really high quality designs from a number of brands.
That said when buying a multitude of knives as some do the brand may be the defining factor and it’s more like catching Pokémon and the “Value” is in furthering the collection- nothing wrong with that of cause but when trying to rationalise it in terms of tangible value as a knife... you will have a hard time.

ZMW
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby ZMW » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:40 pm

sal wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:27 pm
These are just my opinions/ramblings and not here for argument.

Wages in general are an interesting study. From a social psychology point of view. A constant "yin-Yang". Many businesses have their own points of view on this concept world wide. One point of view says; "keep costs as low as possible to maximize profit". Another says; "Pay your people as much as you can so you can keep them". "If you can't keep your good people, you are always training and you never get good".

The Chinese Yuan is 6/1 to the US dollar so one US dollar in China is now worth $6.00

$8.00 per hour is a joke to try to live on. That's the maximize profit part of the equation. Even $15.00 per hour is challenging for survival.

Somewhere between the concepts there is a balance, but it's really hard to find and maintain. A capitalistic leaning drives harder....but many end up with less. A socialistic leaning destroys incentive so most end up with less. Employee owned business seem like a good solution, but most fail?

'Tis a puzzlement?

sal
Part of the human condition. We are an imperfect species so there are Very few black/white answers, because virtually everything has shades of grey to it. When people talk in absolutes it drives me nuts. Most of the time, when two people are arguing both have some valid points and some flawed ones. Finding a good middle ground is key IMO.

Doeswhateveraspidercan
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Doeswhateveraspidercan » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:43 pm

sal wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:27 pm
These are just my opinions/ramblings and not here for argument.

Wages in general are an interesting study. From a social psychology point of view. A constant "yin-Yang". Many businesses have their own points of view on this concept world wide. One point of view says; "keep costs as low as possible to maximize profit". Another says; "Pay your people as much as you can so you can keep them". "If you can't keep your good people, you are always training and you never get good".

The Chinese Yuan is 6/1 to the US dollar so one US dollar in China is now worth $6.00

$8.00 per hour is a joke to try to live on. That's the maximize profit part of the equation. Even $15.00 per hour is challenging for survival.

Somewhere between the concepts there is a balance, but it's really hard to find and maintain. A capitalistic leaning drives harder....but many end up with less. A socialistic leaning destroys incentive so most end up with less. Employee owned business seem like a good solution, but most fail?

'Tis a puzzlement?

sal
Seems pretty simple to me and well laid out. $8.00 an hour is a slave wage $15.00 per hour is A Slave Wage and a half. People need to be making a bare minimum of $20.00 per hour in America to have any standard of living whatsoever at all.

Everything is expensive even when going to crappy Walmart it is a challenge to get out of there for under $100.00 for just basic groceries. Don't even get me started on how overpriced housing is let alone rents.

(FYI I have it on good authority from many in the industry waiting until the end of 2019 is a good idea when looking to bu a house, just thought IO would pass that on to my fellow Knife Nuts.)

I support Sal and Spyderco, Spyderco puts out the best quality Knives and as such that does not come cheap. Fit, Finish, Performance, Choice of Steels, Close Tolerances, Ergonomics it is is right here with Spyderco.

Now if someone wants to buy a cheap gift well that's a persons prerogative it is not for me to judge the value they place on that persons relationship, but if someone gave me a knife as a gift and it said made in China I would hope they did not know much about knives or that I collect them.
:spyder: Make Mine Spyderco :spyder:

I have tried many different High End brands and only Spyderco consistently produces High Quality Knives with the most Innovative Steels and Incredible Designs and often for less money than others.

I have been surprised many times by Sal's design in the dark philosophy and agree with it. How it feels in the hand and how it cuts matters more than how it looks. Lipstick on a pig, does not make it something other than a pig.

500Nitro
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby 500Nitro » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:50 pm

I've mentioned it before.

$200 for a knife over say 20 years (just for calculation purposes), $10 a year for a knife.

$10 a year for a knife I WANT to own and proud to use / show (I still get ooohhs and aarrggghhs over my 27 year old Endura
which at present is around $2-3 a year cost since I purchased it.

AND, if I have a problem, I can still send it back to Spyderco and get it fixed.
Will that apply to the Chinese maker ? I doubt it.

Think what else you spend your DISPOSABLE income on, then see where the value is.

As is often said, people know the cost / $ of everything and the value of nothing !
3 x Endura 1 SE, 1 x Endura ? CE and a Black Pacific Salt. Want Aqua Salt, Fish Hunter and a Pacific Salt Yellow.

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sal
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby sal » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:52 pm

let's try to keep the discussion broad.

Some see a knife as bits of shiny metal with a price. Some see design as a picture or a copy of a picture. Someone said they see the original and the counterfeit as the same product. Some will see high quality where others may not. Some have no idea of quality, The knowledge and history of those on this forum is wide and deep and so there are many variations of thought. let's try to appreciate and remember that.

Different strokes. Different levels of education and understanding.

I see a design like the Shaman as a physical embodiment of tens of thousands of years of history, hundreds of years of design and technology, 60 years of personal touch, the result of hundreds of hours to form, hundreds of hands and minds to build. Yeah, you got. "It's just a knife"

sal

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Vivi
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Vivi » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:56 pm

rgrad80 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:41 pm
I went to my go to online retailer to purchase the DLC Shaman for my coworker as a birthday present...and noticed it costs over $200 now! Needless to say, I went a different direction. I own a Shaman and I love it. I was able to get mine for a very deep discount when a retailer miss priced them last year, but $200? For g10 and S30v? No thanks...and I’m confident many people who had the Shaman on the stong “maybe” list, just crossed it off the list completely.

A few of the Chinese makers are manufacturing outstanding quality knives with perfectly heat treaded super steels...well under $200. So, for the price of a stock PM2 or Shaman, someone can get an outstanding quality/fit/finish, full titanium knife with M390. Truth. The new prices also now put Spyderco in line with a lot of other US makers who will continue to dominate and devour the market share.
I’m always going to be a fan of the Spyderco brand, mostly because I believe Sal is a stand up guy. At the current prices, it’s too easy to get knives made of much higher quality materials with outstanding new designs.
Materials are not the end all be all.

I challenge anyone paying $200 for a Ti/M390 knife to buy a Ti Byrd that costs 1/4th that, use it, and tell me it doesn't function as a tool as well, aside from needing sharpening a bit more frequently.

Shamans would cost much less if they were made in China.

The market is, in my opinion, being robbed. Chinese manufacturers have figured out that people don't care about country of origin and exchange rates anymore. They look at materials and price and that's pretty much it.

These $200 chinese knives could sell for a profit at %50 of the price they're going for I'd wager. Wonder if that's true for the USA made Shaman? Doubt it.

How can Sal sell us $50 Ti chinese knives made by one of the leading folding knife designers while these other companies essentially charge $100-$150 for a blade steel upgrade (That may or may not be what the steel is supposed to be) while offering a worse warranty?

That's a value?
Last edited by Vivi on Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Daveho
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Daveho » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:58 pm

Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:43 pm
Now if someone wants to buy a cheap gift well that's a persons prerogative it is not for me to judge the value they place on that persons relationship, but if someone gave me a knife as a gift and it said made in China I would hope they did not know much about knives or that I collect them.
It sounds like it’s not knives you collect but knives from x,y and z companies from x,y and z countries of origin, keeping in mind that spyderco make knives in China there may be a price requirement attached to them too.


When it comes to historical experience and the legacy which is often attached to USA made knives why is this not applicable to Offerings from Asia?
History suggests they have a more legitimate claim to history and tradition.

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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby SF Native » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:07 pm

Mom3ntuM wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:03 pm
8 $ per hour?
Is it possible to live on that?
If you are a 15 year old living with your parents, yes. If you are a waiter or bartender and get most of your income from tips, yes. If you are a car salesman and get lots of your income from commissions, yes.
If you work in retail, no. These people work 2 or 3 jobs and usually get government assistance. These laws apply to all.

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Vivi
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Re: Hard truths and observations

Postby Vivi » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:10 pm

https://www.bladehq.com/item--Kershaw-L ... ack--75307

USA made knife with M390 blade steel for under $80.

Sal states the dollar to yuan rate is 6 to 1.

How many M390 knives coming out of China sell for $13?

How about we quadruple that price to account for Ti VS Aluminum?

Ok, so how many Ti/M390 knives sell for $52, regardless of where they are made?

Do they have good warranties?

Do they actually use M390? Did you do any testing do determine it's not actually 9Cr "rebranded" as the steel of the day? How many people buying these Ti flippers use them enough to know?

Folks are being ripped off, plain as day. You guys are paying 2-4x what a product could be sold for, buying products that might not be what they claim to be, then complaining that knives made in the USA using legit steels don't have comparable prices?


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