Sharpening choils - Why?

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Wartstein
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Wartstein » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:02 am

Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:59 am
This is why I propose they instead start adding one single large serration at the heel of the blade. This will achieve the same results as a sharpening notch for those who want it, but also prevent things from snagging since it's still an edge. No edge length is lost (technically you gain a small amount) and you have a nice notch for cutting cord.
That's actually a both simple and quite ingenious idea...
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby spyderg » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:11 am

Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:59 am
This is why I propose they instead start adding one single large serration at the heel of the blade. This will achieve the same results as a sharpening notch for those who want it, but also prevent things from snagging since it's still an edge. No edge length is lost (technically you gain a small amount) and you have a nice notch for cutting cord.
Like on a Victorinox Electrician I guess? I’ve thought of trying that before too. Anyone here have an Electrician that cares to add a comment?
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:13 am

I dislike them. I added one to a knife once and regret it. I won’t add one again. Making it a single serration might work better but I would still rather not have one.
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby J D Wijbenga » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:21 am

I am in Vivi's camp here. It is one of the things I like about Spyderco: no sharpeing choil! I have no problem shoarpening up to the recasso free hand.

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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Xplorer » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:36 am

I'm not a fan of sharpening choils. I'd rather not have them on any knives. Like some of the people here, I've thought about this debate for years. I've concluded this is purely a cosmetic issue and it really boils down to whether or not a person wants the edge to look perfectly sharp all the way to the end. For me, I see the knife as a tool and the edge is the useful part of the tool. I want all the edge I can get. Even if there's little bit at the base that cannot be sharpened, it's still less than I would loose by cutting the area away to make a sharpening choil. Inevitably 50% or more of a choil will end up in area that could be sharpened. It's not much...it doesn't realistically matter..it's just mental. My brain is happier knowing I have that extra 2mm of sharpened edge, while others are happier knowing the edge they have is sharp all the way to the end. I bet there's a personality test that would accurately predict which a person would prefer? :D
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Evil D » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:40 am

spyderg wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:11 am
Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:59 am
This is why I propose they instead start adding one single large serration at the heel of the blade. This will achieve the same results as a sharpening notch for those who want it, but also prevent things from snagging since it's still an edge. No edge length is lost (technically you gain a small amount) and you have a nice notch for cutting cord.
Like on a Victorinox Electrician I guess? I’ve thought of trying that before too. Anyone here have an Electrician that cares to add a comment?


I'm not familiar with that knife, I've seen it done on some fixed blades so I can't claim it was my idea or anything. It really seems like a no brainier, I really don't understand why a standard choil would ever be preferable over a serration that can still slice.
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby StuntZombie » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:45 am

I find they're helpful if you're using a sharpener that isn't perfectly flat, such as round ceramic rods, or some of the diamond rod sharpeners.
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby spyderg » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:02 pm

Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:40 am
spyderg wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:11 am
Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:59 am
This is why I propose they instead start adding one single large serration at the heel of the blade. This will achieve the same results as a sharpening notch for those who want it, but also prevent things from snagging since it's still an edge. No edge length is lost (technically you gain a small amount) and you have a nice notch for cutting cord.
Like on a Victorinox Electrician I guess? I’ve thought of trying that before too. Anyone here have an Electrician that cares to add a comment?


I'm not familiar with that knife, I've seen it done on some fixed blades so I can't claim it was my idea or anything. It really seems like a no brainier, I really don't understand why a standard choil would ever be preferable over a serration that can still slice.

This is the Electrician blade that has the serration. Some are ground right to the ricasso others are more like this one. I chose this one to post to highlight that even doing this will leave some ppl complaining, lol!
AA19FE73-DE8A-437B-A9A3-C7B228411C8B.jpeg
*not my pic*
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Wartstein » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:03 pm

Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:40 am
spyderg wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:11 am
Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:59 am
This is why I propose they instead start adding one single large serration at the heel of the blade. This will achieve the same results as a sharpening notch for those who want it, but also prevent things from snagging since it's still an edge. No edge length is lost (technically you gain a small amount) and you have a nice notch for cutting cord.
Like on a Victorinox Electrician I guess? I’ve thought of trying that before too. Anyone here have an Electrician that cares to add a comment?


I'm not familiar with that knife, I've seen it done on some fixed blades so I can't claim it was my idea or anything. It really seems like a no brainier, I really don't understand why a standard choil would ever be preferable over a serration that can still slice.
I personally have never seen it done on any knife and wonder why, since that approach is a rather ingenious one, IF one wants a sharpening choil anyway!
Can't be patented or something, I mean how could several serrations in a row NOT be patented but a single one is...
I could even see "One-serration-instead-of-a-notch" to be kind of a trademark for a brand.
Still, I prefer no notch and no single-serration, just edge all the way...
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Wartstein » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:06 pm

spyderg wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:02 pm
Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:40 am
spyderg wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:11 am
Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:59 am
This is why I propose they instead start adding one single large serration at the heel of the blade. This will achieve the same results as a sharpening notch for those who want it, but also prevent things from snagging since it's still an edge. No edge length is lost (technically you gain a small amount) and you have a nice notch for cutting cord.
Like on a Victorinox Electrician I guess? I’ve thought of trying that before too. Anyone here have an Electrician that cares to add a comment?


I'm not familiar with that knife, I've seen it done on some fixed blades so I can't claim it was my idea or anything. It really seems like a no brainier, I really don't understand why a standard choil would ever be preferable over a serration that can still slice.

This is the Electrician blade that has the serration. Some are ground right to the ricasso others are more like this one. I chose this one to post to highlight that even doing this will leave some ppl complaining, lol! AA19FE73-DE8A-437B-A9A3-C7B228411C8B.jpeg *not my pic*
Meant to be a wire-stripper, right?
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby spyderg » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:10 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:06 pm
spyderg wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:02 pm
Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:40 am
spyderg wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:11 am


Like on a Victorinox Electrician I guess? I’ve thought of trying that before too. Anyone here have an Electrician that cares to add a comment?


I'm not familiar with that knife, I've seen it done on some fixed blades so I can't claim it was my idea or anything. It really seems like a no brainier, I really don't understand why a standard choil would ever be preferable over a serration that can still slice.

This is the Electrician blade that has the serration. Some are ground right to the ricasso others are more like this one. I chose this one to post to highlight that even doing this will leave some ppl complaining, lol! AA19FE73-DE8A-437B-A9A3-C7B228411C8B.jpeg *not my pic*
Meant to be a wire-stripper, right?
That’s my understanding.
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Vivi » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:07 pm

basedlarrydavid wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:55 am
Without them, especially on jig systems, the stone cannot contact the full length of the blade while remaining flat. Thus, over time, the blade is worn unevenly due to uneven sharpening. I never realized how incredibly useful and helpful they are until I started sharpening myself.

A lot depends on the geometry of the blade. Not every knife that has a sharpening choil needs one. But when you run across a knife that could really benefit from having one and doesn’t (cough, Benchmade 940, cough) it can be a real pain.

I usually sharpen all the way to the plunge/ricasso on PM2s for the same (less pronounced) reasons. A few strokes on an Atoma 140 and I’m good to go.
Ah, ok. I do all my sharpening free hand.

Confused about the 940 comment though. The massive sharpening notch it has doesn't qualify as one in your book?

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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Vivi » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:08 pm

BornIn1500 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:34 am
Vivi wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:35 am
You're better of letting that first part develop a J shape

Ah, but then it wouldn't look all nice and clean. Using your first example, the Kapara, I think we can agree that people are buying it just as much for the art aspect as for the tool aspect and they're paying a hefty price to get it. So they want everything to look crisp and clean like a well-ironed shirt. Case in point... you really don't hear people complaining about a lack of a sharpening choil on the Tenacious.
I don't think making the blade look like it has a big chip taken out near the ricasso looks clean, but that's pretty subjective territory.

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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Vivi » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 pm

anagarika wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:25 am
Vivi,

I am in disagreement here. The notch doesn’t reduce the sharp edge, it’s cut into unsharpened part, and if done correctly, it’s sharp, no snagging.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VMvE-b4259A

I’m not
99% of the ones I see are dull and reduce the cutting edge. It's my #1 gripe on one of my favorite fixed blades:

Image

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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Vivi » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:14 pm

Evil D wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:59 am
This is why I propose they instead start adding one single large serration at the heel of the blade. This will achieve the same results as a sharpening notch for those who want it, but also prevent things from snagging since it's still an edge. No edge length is lost (technically you gain a small amount) and you have a nice notch for cutting cord.
This would make so much more sense than what we currently see. I'd still prefer a straight edge, but this would eliminate the snagging issue and my main annoyance with the notch.

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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Wartstein » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:48 pm

Somehow the starting point of this thread indirectly was a video by Allistair Phillips, teaching how to add a sharpenig choil to the Kapara.
So I thought it would maybe be interesting for some, how he himself did reply to a question concerning "Sharpening choils - why?"

I myself happened to ask him this very question in the comment section below his video on youtube some two weeks ago, and just gonna copy and paste this and his reply below

Wartstein: "...I understand how a choil makes it possible to sharpen the whole length of the cutting edge easily. BUT: If you do NOT have a choil: The first little part of the edge (where you would apply a choil) would stay unsharpened. So: Wouldn´t you end up with the same amount of sharp edge, regardless if the knife has a choil or not?"

Alistair Phillips:"Yeah I guess it depends on how close you can bring that un-sharpened section to the plunge of the grind. It would depend also on what sharpening system you are using."

To me that does not sound like he´d put in a choil mainly to achieve MORE sharpened edge than there would be without.
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Pelagic » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:55 pm

I'm still wondering how people have trouble sharpening the base of the blade. Given you must overcome the fact that spyderco didn't do it (usually), once you have it right it's easy to maintain (IF you use stones and not sharpening rods).
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby brainfriction » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:02 pm

Especially with an edge pro a sharpening choil makes things easier and keeps the stone from digging in and making a recurve. I put a choil on my para 3, but on my PM2 I just decided to sharpen it all the way to the ricasso with a coarse diamond stone. It takes a little more time, but it looks a little better I think.

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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Sharp Guy » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:19 pm

I don't typically care whether or not a knife has a sharpening choil. Reprofiling a knife with a severely angled plunge grind (Sliverax, Mantra, Positron, etc) is about the only time I've really wanted one.
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Re: Sharpening choils - Why?

Postby Crux » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:41 pm

Use the small diamond file to touch up the blade when necessary. Problem solved. :)
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