Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

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Lost Jaguar
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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby Lost Jaguar » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:42 pm

Another run of the Military with CTS-XHP would be very cool.

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AlexRus
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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby AlexRus » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:32 am

Lost Jaguar wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:42 pm
Another run of the Military with CTS-XHP would be very cool.
Yeah, and I wouldn't mind another run of Military with M390 and black Carbon Fiber scales as well. It would sell faster than hot cakes.
😎

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Bloke
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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby Bloke » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:43 am

Still patiently awaiting a Maxamet Military. ;)
A day without laughter is a day wasted. ~ Charlie Chaplin

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby AlexRus » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:04 am

Bloke wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:43 am
Still patiently awaiting a Maxamet Military. ;)
Hi AlexAus, from your namesake AlexRus:)

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby Bloke » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:11 pm

AlexRus wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:04 am
Bloke wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:43 am
Still patiently awaiting a Maxamet Military. ;)
Hi AlexAus, from your namesake AlexRus:)
это хорошо, что мы терпеливый тезка. :)
A day without laughter is a day wasted. ~ Charlie Chaplin

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby JonLeBlanc » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:40 pm

AlexRus wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:36 am
Any news on Paramilitary 2 M390 returns?
The DLT red G-10 version is going to be re-run, it's just not certain exactly when :cool:
Can anyone tell me about 10V (as mentioned above)? I presume it's a tool/HSS...
My collection so far: 52100 Military (2); 52100 PM2 (2); 52100 Para3; Stretch2 V-Toku; KnifeWorks M4 PM2; BentoBox M390 PM2; BentoBox S90V Military; Police4 K390; S110V PM2; SS Delica AUS-6; Wayne Goddard Sprint VG-10
Wish list: Hundred Pacer; Sliverax; Mantra; 52100 PM2 SE; Kapara

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby TomAiello » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:50 pm

10v is a tool steel that has really good edge holding and reasonable toughness (which is pretty fantastic giving it's edge holding). It's not stainless at all, though. I think it's very similar to k390 (at least it is in my uses).

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby AlexRus » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:27 pm

Bloke wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:11 pm
AlexRus wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:04 am
Bloke wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:43 am
Still patiently awaiting a Maxamet Military. ;)
Hi AlexAus, from your namesake AlexRus:)
это хорошо, что мы терпеливый тезка. :)
Да :)

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby Albatross » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:52 pm

I'd rather see Rex45 exclusives. There have been a ton of M390 family exclusives and Rex45 is in high demand. I've heard there will be one this year. This is what I'm holding out for.

I doubt REC will do PM2 in 204P, since Knifeworks just did a run of 204P. I could be wrong though. It would only sell well if they did the same scales and blade coating as their Para 3. There seems to be too many 20CV, 204P, and M390 exclusives. I have a 204P PM2 and love it, so don't get me wrong, but it's time for new steels. Benchmade and ZT upped their 20CV production over the last couple years, so it's just a matter of time before everyone moves on to new steels anyway. Why burn out before absolutely necessary?

M4 is another that's becoming overdone, in my opinion. BHQ did theirs and Knifeworks had(or maybe still has?) theirs. BHQ has been creating runs of every Golden model in M4, and then a 2nd run with DLC.

Maybe something else like 10V or 15V, as mentioned before. S125V or Rex121 would be awesome too.

4V seems to be in high demand as well. I'm not interested. Personally, I believe folders shouldn't have "tough" steels, that's what we have fixed blades for. To each their own though.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby hungryboy » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:38 pm

Knifeworks 204P PM2 sold in hours to there's still plenty of demand for another out there. I'm willing to bet the rerun DLT in red goes in less than an hour. If they do a military in that combo it will sell as well as the REX 45 Military I think. Same goes for a tan 20 CV Military. Any PM 2 with steel other than S30V will sell fast. Military buyers are fewer so the choice of steel needs to be popular. The M4 satin blade BHQ exclusive sold pretty quickly so if they pick the right combination of color and steel they (militarys) sell fast.

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby cycleguy » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:13 pm

Now that the Knifeworks PM2 carbon fiber (solid w/ peel ply texture I believe) and M4 blade is out of stock. I'd like to see something PM2 with this same carbon fiber handle and a stainless blade of M390 (CruWear would be acceptable too). Fingers crossed....

CG
So many knives - so little funds!!!

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby youmakemehole » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:27 am

Albatross wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:52 pm

4V seems to be in high demand as well. I'm not interested. Personally, I believe folders shouldn't have "tough" steels, that's what we have fixed blades for. To each their own though.
I feel you're almost making sound as if 4v is a tough steel that only has that attribute going for it, when it has edge retention that blows many "super" steels out of the water. This has been confirmed by at least a small handful of independent steel testers. One example:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1607644856

In this guy's testing, 4v lost in cardboard cutting only to Maxamet, REX45, S110v and a few other very exotic super high end steels never used in production knives. 4v was able to beat out M390, M4, K390, ZDP-189, S90v, the list goes on when comparing the average ft of cardboard the blade was able to cut. So 4v really could be viewed as an excellent edge retaining supersteel in the same league as all those other great carbon and stainless folder steels, except it has a tremendously increased level of toughness, making blade chipping a non-issue and also bringing a lot of extra utility and ability to the knife. The toughness and edge retention on any steel depends largely on the HT of course but in general, for the case fo 4v steel as a whole/in general, it seems no matter how you cut it, it will be keeping up with the other steels as far as retention goes and any loss of edge retention(which by the evidence of many testers seems to be non-existant) would be minuscule and greatly made up for by toughness, not to mention it is probably more likely the 4v will have been heat treated properly to have superior edge retention in reality.
"Sometimes I think that we're all little kids trying to act like grown ups, in our parents clothes. ;) "

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby Albatross » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:55 am

youmakemehole wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:27 am
Albatross wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:52 pm

4V seems to be in high demand as well. I'm not interested. Personally, I believe folders shouldn't have "tough" steels, that's what we have fixed blades for. To each their own though.
I feel you're almost making sound as if 4v is a tough steel that only has that attribute going for it, when it has edge retention that blows many "super" steels out of the water. This has been confirmed by at least a small handful of independent steel testers. One example:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1607644856

In this guy's testing, 4v lost in cardboard cutting only to Maxamet, REX45, S110v and a few other very exotic super high end steels never used in production knives. 4v was able to beat out M390, M4, K390, ZDP-189, S90v, the list goes on when comparing the average ft of cardboard the blade was able to cut. So 4v really could be viewed as an excellent edge retaining supersteel in the same league as all those other great carbon and stainless folder steels, except it has a tremendously increased level of toughness, making blade chipping a non-issue and also bringing a lot of extra utility and ability to the knife. The toughness and edge retention on any steel depends largely on the HT of course but in general, for the case fo 4v steel as a whole/in general, it seems no matter how you cut it, it will be keeping up with the other steels as far as retention goes and any loss of edge retention(which by the evidence of many testers seems to be non-existant) would be minuscule and greatly made up for by toughness, not to mention it is probably more likely the 4v will have been heat treated properly to have superior edge retention in reality.

I think you found an argument where none was intended, but I'll bite.

Which person did the cardboard tests? Was the 4v knife a Spyderco? If not, the data is irrelevant, due to heat treat differences between makers.
Last edited by Albatross on Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby Albatross » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:06 am

hungryboy wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:38 pm
Knifeworks 204P PM2 sold in hours to there's still plenty of demand for another out there. I'm willing to bet the rerun DLT in red goes in less than an hour. If they do a military in that combo it will sell as well as the REX 45 Military I think. Same goes for a tan 20 CV Military. Any PM 2 with steel other than S30V will sell fast. Military buyers are fewer so the choice of steel needs to be popular. The M4 satin blade BHQ exclusive sold pretty quickly so if they pick the right combination of color and steel they (militarys) sell fast.
Sure, they will sell, but my opinion hasn't changed. The M390 family is overly represented and other quality steels are being overlooked. I appreciate what St. Nicks did with the Para 3, even if I'm not a fan of the steel choice, as it was something different.

We will undoubtedly see more M4, M390, 20CV, and 204P exclusives, no worry there, but we need to see other steels. It cant be just the same 4.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby youmakemehole » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:46 am

Albatross wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:55 am

I think you found an argument where none was intended, but I'll bite.

Which person did the cardboard tests? Was the 4v knife a Spyderco? If not, the data is irrelevant, due to heat treat differences between makers.
Argument is a bit of a strong word for what can be instead interpreted as a mutual exchange of opinions and facts for the goal of being as objective as possible, no? I know I've read somewhere that Spyderco's 4v is ht'd to be more on the harder side with a focus on edge retention. Theres a thread somewhere in here where some folks have gone and collectively put together a list of HRC values for most of Spyderco's knife steels, and if I remember correctly, 4v was sitting at somewhere around 61 or 62 HRC. The creator of that spreadsheet I mentioned earlier has his name on the front of it, its some Youtuber who puts out cut test videos, ill link his profile here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdICfn ... LaSr3DN55g

I found a video he made comparing 4v and Cruwear, both on plain edge Para 3's via rope cutting on a wooden block. The 4v beat out the Cruwear by a very slight margin, and even though it was not too scientific by any means, at the very least they were same exact knife, which is is not the case for many of these homemade steel tests. On top of that, even if hypothetically there was a 5% margin of error in the difference entirely skewing towards the Cruwear, the 4v still would have cut the same amount of rope if not very slightly more. It'd be a tough argument to say the possibility of error could render the performance of the 4v significantly less than of Cruwear. This is just one test, but it was literally the second thing that popped up when I was linking the guys profile for you. I've def heard of many other experiences and tests showcasing 4v's world class edge retention levels that also happen to be paired with one of the highest levels of toughness for any high end knife steel. So if you were indeed talking about Spyderco's 4v knives, I'm just wondering if your distaste for the steel in their folders comes from actual experience with Spyderco 4v, or just from assuming Spyderco would not be able to HT such a great steel such as 4v to match the hardness and edge retention levels of other supersteels, since it it must have a trade off for its absurdly superior toughness? My intentions for discussing this is not for the sake of argument or to rub in anyones lack of inerrancy but rather to just be sure my opinions have validity and also that people who read my opinions as well as your opinions are being delivered the most accurate information they can receive. ;)
"Sometimes I think that we're all little kids trying to act like grown ups, in our parents clothes. ;) "

-sal

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby Albatross » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:13 am

youmakemehole wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:46 am
Albatross wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:55 am

I think you found an argument where none was intended, but I'll bite.

Which person did the cardboard tests? Was the 4v knife a Spyderco? If not, the data is irrelevant, due to heat treat differences between makers.
Argument is a bit of a strong word for what can be instead interpreted as a mutual exchange of opinions and facts for the goal of being as objective as possible, no? I know I've read somewhere that Spyderco's 4v is ht'd to be more on the harder side with a focus on edge retention. Theres a thread somewhere in here where some folks have gone and collectively put together a list of HRC values for most of Spyderco's knife steels, and if I remember correctly, 4v was sitting at somewhere around 61 or 62 HRC. The creator of that spreadsheet has his name on the front of it, its some Youtuber who puts out cut test videos, ill link his profile here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdICfn ... LaSr3DN55g

I found a video he made comparing 4v and Cruwear, both on plain edge Para 3's via rope cutting on a wooden block. The 4v beat out the Cruwear by a very slight margin, and even though it was not too scientific by any means, at the very least they were same exact knife, which is is not the case for many of these homemade steel tests. On top of that, even if hypothetically there a 5% margin of error in the difference entirely favoring the Cruwear instead, the 4v still would have cut the same amount of rope if not very slightly more. It'd be a tough argument to say the possibility of error could render the performance of the 4v significantly less than of Cruwear. This is just one test, but it was literally the second thing that popped up when I was linking the guys profile for you. I've def heard of many other experiences and tests showcasing 4v's world class edge retention levels that also happen to be paired with one of the highest levels of toughness for any high end knife steel. So if you were indeed talking about Spyderco's 4v knives, I'm just wondering if your distaste for the steel in their folders comes from actual experience with Spyderco 4v, or just from assuming Spyderco would not be able to HT such a great steel such as 4v to match the hardness and edge retention levels of other supersteels? My intentions for discussing this is not for the sake of argument or to rub in anyones lack of inerrancy but rather to just be sure my opinions have validity and also that people who read my opinions as well as your opinions are being delivered the most accurate information they can receive. ;)
Argument is not always used in a negative way. My point was that I did not make the argument that 4V had poor retention, hence the part about finding an argument where none was intended.

Cedric and Ada(Pete) does rope cutting tests, not cardboard and his results don't show 4V besting the steels you listed. I'm confused there.

My dislike for tough steels in folders comes from knowing there is no need for it, assuming folders are used for the types of cutting they were designed for. I've never felt like I'm lacking toughness in my S110V PM2. Never chipped it or had any issues. I also have fixed blades for tougher jobs though.

People want too much out of their folders, but I don't expect that to change. It is what it is, and this is only my opinion.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby AlexRus » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:31 am

Military or Paramilitary 2 in CPM S125V, please!
In marbled Carbon Fiber scales 😎

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby youmakemehole » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:48 am

Albatross wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:13 am
Argument is not always used in a negative way. My point was that I did not make the argument that 4V had poor retention, hence the part about finding an argument where none was intended.

Cedric and Ada(Pete) does rope cutting tests, not cardboard and his results don't show 4V besting the steels you listed. I'm confused there.

My dislike for tough steels in folders comes from knowing there is no need for it, assuming folders are used for the types of cutting they were designed for. I've never felt like I'm lacking toughness in my S110V PM2. Never chipped it or had any issues. I also have fixed blades for tougher jobs though.

People want too much out of their folders, but I don't expect that to change. It is what it is, and this is only my opinion.
Thats all perfectly fair what you're saying. I guess my take is that if you could have both then why not you know? And I might've been confused about the rope/cardboard cutting because I wansnt paying too much attention, however if you look in the spreadsheet, I think the default ranking on the page where it says 'statistics', all the steels are sorted by average cuts and with that sorting the 4v does beat out nearly everything other than Maxamet S110v and REX 45. Theres a whole lot of subjectivity in this argument I'm making here and I'm sure even I could point out various things to nitpick, but my point overall really was just to say that with 4v, there isn't really anything that is sacrificed in terms of edge retention if at all to be able to have lots of toughness, and even if it is for a user who does not require toughness, having it and not needing it I would not say is too much of a detriment at all~
"Sometimes I think that we're all little kids trying to act like grown ups, in our parents clothes. ;) "

-sal

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby hungryboy » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:29 am

Albatross wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:06 am
hungryboy wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:38 pm
Knifeworks 204P PM2 sold in hours to there's still plenty of demand for another out there. I'm willing to bet the rerun DLT in red goes in less than an hour. If they do a military in that combo it will sell as well as the REX 45 Military I think. Same goes for a tan 20 CV Military. Any PM 2 with steel other than S30V will sell fast. Military buyers are fewer so the choice of steel needs to be popular. The M4 satin blade BHQ exclusive sold pretty quickly so if they pick the right combination of color and steel they (militarys) sell fast.
Sure, they will sell, but my opinion hasn't changed. The M390 family is overly represented and other quality steels are being overlooked. I appreciate what St. Nicks did with the Para 3, even if I'm not a fan of the steel choice, as it was something different.

We will undoubtedly see more M4, M390, 20CV, and 204P exclusives, no worry there, but we need to see other steels. It cant be just the same 4.
I don't disagree with variety being great. I like steel choice., That said any business that runs an exclusive must be confident they will have a timely return on their investment.

If I put X dollars into an exclusive production run and 12 months later 1/2 were unsold I'd be pretty unhappy about my decision. I think that said there is room for variety and choice but I can fully understand businesses going with a safe formula, popular knife in an appealing color and a steel they know has wide appeal. Price point also comes into play. I know there are more than a few here that want a St Nicks G10 Delica but the price is keeping them away. I'm one of them.

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Re: Spyderco Military and Paramilitary 2 upcoming sprints and exclusives

Postby Albatross » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:49 am

hungryboy wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:29 am
Albatross wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:06 am
hungryboy wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:38 pm
Knifeworks 204P PM2 sold in hours to there's still plenty of demand for another out there. I'm willing to bet the rerun DLT in red goes in less than an hour. If they do a military in that combo it will sell as well as the REX 45 Military I think. Same goes for a tan 20 CV Military. Any PM 2 with steel other than S30V will sell fast. Military buyers are fewer so the choice of steel needs to be popular. The M4 satin blade BHQ exclusive sold pretty quickly so if they pick the right combination of color and steel they (militarys) sell fast.
Sure, they will sell, but my opinion hasn't changed. The M390 family is overly represented and other quality steels are being overlooked. I appreciate what St. Nicks did with the Para 3, even if I'm not a fan of the steel choice, as it was something different.

We will undoubtedly see more M4, M390, 20CV, and 204P exclusives, no worry there, but we need to see other steels. It cant be just the same 4.
I don't disagree with variety being great. I like steel choice., That said any business that runs an exclusive must be confident they will have a timely return on their investment.

If I put X dollars into an exclusive production run and 12 months later 1/2 were unsold I'd be pretty unhappy about my decision. I think that said there is room for variety and choice but I can fully understand businesses going with a safe formula, popular knife in an appealing color and a steel they know has wide appeal. Price point also comes into play. I know there are more than a few here that want a St Nicks G10 Delica but the price is keeping them away. I'm one of them.
This is true, but I think people forget WHY it's so expensive. When you take an almost $80 knife and upgrade the steel, you get the $95 pricetag we saw on the sprint. Then coat the blade and coat the hardware for x amount. Make the liners taller for x more. Then add G10 for the final cost. Sure, it's high, but the knife you're getting, over what you get in the base model, is very much worth it. Look at how expensive the G10 Stretch 2 ZDP-189 is.

Granted, this doesn't mean people will want to buy one any more because of this, but perspective is necessary. I've seen lots of complaints (your comments reminded me of people's dislike for the knife), with most of them saying the price is too high. My response is this; the price is justified, but seems to be out of people's price range or it is money they feel is better spent on another model. That's fair, no knife is for everyone.

I bought one and decided it wasn't for me, despite it having the smoothest action, most solid lockup, and most quality feel of any Delica I've ever held. I sold it to raise funds for the Knife Center Pakkawood model, and boy am I pleased with that one. Talk about a gentleman's carry! It has so much style and class, my wallet practically opened itself for this one.

Nothing wrong with the basic sprint either. For some that's their grail knife, and I respect that.

Anyway, this is my extremely long-winded reasoning for this next bit...

Dealers will have to take chances, if they want to stand out. The 4V was an excellent example of this. It worked well for them. Some will be homeruns, while others will flop. Even Spyderco goes through wins and losses. So the familiar steels and colors are safe, but if everyone is doing the same thing, it wont stay safe for long.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal


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