What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

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Deadboxhero
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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby Deadboxhero » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:52 pm

It won't come off in a long strip like that. This is unique but a good example of how it works.

Usually it comes off in "bits" on the stone.

On cheap stainless steel it's very very stubborn, almost impossible to remove. In that case I raise the angle about 1° and cut the burr off on the stone with a micro if the burr is too stubborn. That's the only way I like to use microbevels otherwise the performance is disappointing. In general I feel micros should only be used after a burr is formed. They don't work good as shortcuts without a burr formed first, lacks crispness and performance.

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^^ That's awesome! THAT'S what I want to see.
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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:09 am

So I took the advice of intentionally dulling the blade and starting from scratch. Applied more Sharpie to the edge and went to work on the brown stones. Turns out with the Centofante 3, the show side of the blades edge was not 20 degrees. I had to ever so slightly angle that side of the edge towards the stone instead of holding the knife totally straight. Something I should have realized in the first place, based on how it sounded once I really hit the apex just right. Though the Sharpie had rubbed off when sharpening at 20 degrees, this ever so slight adjustment made all the difference. I'm still working at it on the browns, but have definitely noticed a difference. Amazing how such a minor adjustment is what I needed.
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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby Zatx » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:17 pm

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:09 am
So I took the advice of intentionally dulling the blade and starting from scratch. Applied more Sharpie to the edge and went to work on the brown stones. Turns out with the Centofante 3, the show side of the blades edge was not 20 degrees. I had to ever so slightly angle that side of the edge towards the stone instead of holding the knife totally straight. Something I should have realized in the first place, based on how it sounded once I really hit the apex just right. Though the Sharpie had rubbed off when sharpening at 20 degrees, this ever so slight adjustment made all the difference. I'm still working at it on the browns, but have definitely noticed a difference. Amazing how such a minor adjustment is what I needed.

The medium brown stones really are the key to hair-whittling sharpness. If you haven't gotten a knife to this level of sharpness at this stage, you aren't going to get there with the fine and ultra-fine stones. The Sharpmaker rewards patience - and brutally punishes haste - like no other sharpening technique or system on the planet. You're always better off setting your knife down and coming back to it later than trying to rush ahead to the next stage prematurely.

By the way, I highly recommend getting a lighted pocket microscope (search the big-river site) so that you can be 100% sure you've hit the apex and/or removed a burr/wire-edge. My sharpening results improved by several levels once I could see what the unaided eye could not.

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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby Pelagic » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:27 pm

Zatx wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:17 pm
TkoK83Spy wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:09 am
So I took the advice of intentionally dulling the blade and starting from scratch. Applied more Sharpie to the edge and went to work on the brown stones. Turns out with the Centofante 3, the show side of the blades edge was not 20 degrees. I had to ever so slightly angle that side of the edge towards the stone instead of holding the knife totally straight. Something I should have realized in the first place, based on how it sounded once I really hit the apex just right. Though the Sharpie had rubbed off when sharpening at 20 degrees, this ever so slight adjustment made all the difference. I'm still working at it on the browns, but have definitely noticed a difference. Amazing how such a minor adjustment is what I needed.

The medium brown stones really are the key to hair-whittling sharpness. If you haven't gotten a knife to this level of sharpness at this stage, you aren't going to get there with the fine and ultra-fine stones. The Sharpmaker rewards patience - and brutally punishes haste - like no other sharpening technique or system on the planet. You're always better off setting your knife down and coming back to it later than trying to rush ahead to the next stage prematurely.

By the way, I highly recommend getting a lighted pocket microscope (search the big-river site) so that you can be 100% sure you've hit the apex and/or removed a burr/wire-edge. My sharpening results improved by several levels once I could see what the unaided eye could not.
I'd say freehand punishes haste the most, lol. What pocket microscope would you recommend?
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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby Evil D » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:04 pm

I think your next step should be towards some kind of system that makes reporfiling easier/quicker than you'll get with the Sharpmaker. I'm an Edge Pro guy but I'd love a Hapstone. Some like the Wicked Edge but I'm not a fan of clamp based sharpening setups (don't get me started). This will allow you to reprofile any knife so that you know what the bevel angles are, and then your daily routine touch ups on the Sharpmaker will go that much easier. It may sound like you wouldn't need both, and indeed you may not, but for ease of use and convenience the Sharpmaker is a very good tool for simple touch ups and I'd say at this point I can actually get better final edges off of it than I can my Edge Pro, and I have stones for it that cost more than the Sharpmaker did.
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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby Zatx » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:56 am

Evil D wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:04 pm
I think your next step should be towards some kind of system that makes reporfiling easier/quicker than you'll get with the Sharpmaker. I'm an Edge Pro guy but I'd love a Hapstone. Some like the Wicked Edge but I'm not a fan of clamp based sharpening setups (don't get me started). This will allow you to reprofile any knife so that you know what the bevel angles are, and then your daily routine touch ups on the Sharpmaker will go that much easier. It may sound like you wouldn't need both, and indeed you may not, but for ease of use and convenience the Sharpmaker is a very good tool for simple touch ups and I'd say at this point I can actually get better final edges off of it than I can my Edge Pro, and I have stones for it that cost more than the Sharpmaker did.

I'm in the "reflection" process of writing a comprehensive knife sharpening post based on my years of experience and spending thousands of dollars on all manner of sharpening equipment. While I don't want to reveal too much of it yet, I can say that the Sharpmaker can truly be a Sharpmaker and not the Sharpkeeper as many suppose. It can reprofile the hardest of steels with the diamond or CBN rods, the added time it takes only helps improve one's technique with the follow-on stones.

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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby Zatx » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:01 am

Pelagic wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:27 pm

I'd say freehand punishes haste the most, lol. What pocket microscope would you recommend?
I don't have a recommendation for which pocket microscope you get, just search for Pocket Microscope on the Big River commerce site and read the reviews. I would suggest getting a 10x loupe along with the microscope and make sure both have their own light source. I'm pretty sure I didn't spend more than $10 on either of them.

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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:23 am

Yep, I just ordered one off of Amazon for $8. This will definitely help me out when I struggle.
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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby JD Spydo » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:18 am

Depending on what type of wire edge you've gotten or even what may have caused it would largely depend on which remedy. I have a few German made, Freiderich Dick Butcher steels. I've used the fine cut and the multi-cut both and have had great results.

But again it depends a lot on what caused the problem to begin with. I heard a couple of the other guys mention the use of diamond abrasive stone to fix the problem and I can't disagree with that because it seems like every time I use diamond sharpening tools it seems like they cut smoother and more consistently than many other abrasives do. Now in the finishing phase that's a different animal all together.

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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:29 am

At the moment, this is the only thing I have as a diamond tool. Convenient little carry along thing, 600 grit.


Capture.PNG
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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby Pelagic » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:45 am

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:29 am
At the moment, this is the only thing I have as a diamond tool. Convenient little carry along thing, 600 grit.



Capture.PNG
That looks nice. I have the DMT 600 and 1200 sharpening rods and they're great. I want to get some ceramic rods as well, I love the little one on my worksharp pocket sharpener.
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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:31 pm

I forgot I even had it. Bought it when I was using Kershaw knives exclusively a couple years ago and found it in my desk drawer. When I get home and get to work on the HAP40 Delica I mentioned in the OP, I think I'll give it a few swipes on this and then go to the brown stones and see how I do.
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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:09 am

So I received my 10X led lighted loupe yesterday. As good as advertised and well worth the $8. Thing nearly blinded me about 10 times reflecting off the blades last night haha.

Turns out the 4 knives I'm struggling with, the burr is on the show side of each blade and part of the apex. I went to work on the Centofante last night, figuring VG10 would be easiest of the steels I need to work at. I couldn't take it off with a few swipes at that diamond rod I posted above, the corners of the brown rods or flats of the browns. I tried light and at times light/medium pressure on all 3 setups and just couldn't get it with a little more than an hour of time invested! It looks a little smaller than when I began, but it never flipped to the other side of the blade or to only the apex. Left defeated, I gave it a rest of the night and will get back to it after work today.

Any ideas what I could be doing wrong here? I've done heel to tip, tip to heel, scrubbing motion using both, Increased and decreased my angle ever so slightly. I'm going to get this figured out one way or another, just feeling a bit defeated that maybe I had beginners luck for that first 8 months or so and now it's starting to wear off.
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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby Zatx » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:12 am

I believe in that other thread I posted a book on removing the burr that was written by a gentleman who used rigorous scientific research and an electron scanning microscope to determine what works best to remove a burr (http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Kni ... g_book.pdf). His findings indicated that the only way to remove a burr from modern super-steels is using a low-speed grinder, hard felt disk, and .5 micron diamond powder.

The main thing he proved is that diamond is the only thing hard enough to remove the microscopic foil or wire type burr. Leather doesn't do it; green strops don't do it, ceramic stones can't do it; they simply aren't sharp/hard enough. What stropping does with these lesser media is hone the steel surrounding the harder carbides in the matrix, leaving the burr behind. Oh, yes, you will undoubtedly get very sharp blades using these other techniques, but an edge with zero burr will be sharper and last much much longer than one with even a microscopic burr.

Well, I don't have the grinder or felt pad, so I adapted his technique utilizing the tools I have available. Using a piece of the hardest balsa wood I could find I made a strop utilizing a mixture of .5 and 1.0-micron diamond paste. I uniformly spread the paste on the wood then used a heat gun to dry the oil from the compound. So, what I do is take a freshly sharpened knife and examine the burr under a 120x microscope. No matter how much care I take to keep this burr as small as possible while sharpening, there is always one present if I'm hitting the apex at all. I then strop the knife once or twice using light to medium pressure at the same angle of sharpening on the side that has the least burr and examine it again under the microscope. If the light drops entirely off of the edge, the burr is gone (at least to the level I can see at this magnification). I then switch sides and strop a couple of times then inspect and repeat this process until the burr is gone. Flip the knife one more time to make sure I didn't create a burr on the opposite side and then stop. If you overstrop, you'll round the apex and slightly dull the edge, though at this microscopic level you probably won't be able to notice this by feel.

I've now used two very different sharpening systems (Sharpmaker and Ken Onion Blade Grinder) to reprofile and sharpen identical PM2's. The Sharpmaker creates a very flat bevel, and the Ken Onion makes the bevel more convex, but this technique produced similar results... an extraordinarily sharp and durable edge that was burr free at least at 120x magnification.

Understand, that my technique will not produce an edge that is quite as durable as the grinder/felt pad technique because the research showed that there was some work hardening that occurred by the speed and vibration of the felt pad, but the edge will still be more durable than an edge with a burr.

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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby TkoK83Spy » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:29 am

Some great info, thank you for your time Zatx!
20 :spyder:'s in 11 different steels
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1 - Microtech Ultratech DE OTF
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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby Zatx » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:51 am

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:29 am
Some great info, thank you for your time Zatx!

You're welcome; I'm obsessed with chasing the ultimate edge. I just ordered a 250x digital microscope so I can photograph my sharpening and show you guys what's happening at the microscopic level.

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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby ejames13 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:31 pm

Zatx wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:12 am
I believe in that other thread I posted a book on removing the burr that was written by a gentleman who used rigorous scientific research and an electron scanning microscope to determine what works best to remove a burr (http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Kni ... g_book.pdf). His findings indicated that the only way to remove a burr from modern super-steels is using a low-speed grinder, hard felt disk, and .5 micron diamond powder.

The main thing he proved is that diamond is the only thing hard enough to remove the microscopic foil or wire type burr. Leather doesn't do it; green strops don't do it, ceramic stones can't do it; they simply aren't sharp/hard enough. What stropping does with these lesser media is hone the steel surrounding the harder carbides in the matrix, leaving the burr behind. Oh, yes, you will undoubtedly get very sharp blades using these other techniques, but an edge with zero burr will be sharper and last much much longer than one with even a microscopic burr.

Well, I don't have the grinder or felt pad, so I adapted his technique utilizing the tools I have available. Using a piece of the hardest balsa wood I could find I made a strop utilizing a mixture of .5 and 1.0-micron diamond paste. I uniformly spread the paste on the wood then used a heat gun to dry the oil from the compound. So, what I do is take a freshly sharpened knife and examine the burr under a 120x microscope. No matter how much care I take to keep this burr as small as possible while sharpening, there is always one present if I'm hitting the apex at all. I then strop the knife once or twice using light to medium pressure at the same angle of sharpening on the side that has the least burr and examine it again under the microscope. If the light drops entirely off of the edge, the burr is gone (at least to the level I can see at this magnification). I then switch sides and strop a couple of times then inspect and repeat this process until the burr is gone. Flip the knife one more time to make sure I didn't create a burr on the opposite side and then stop. If you overstrop, you'll round the apex and slightly dull the edge, though at this microscopic level you probably won't be able to notice this by feel.

I've now used two very different sharpening systems (Sharpmaker and Ken Onion Blade Grinder) to reprofile and sharpen identical PM2's. The Sharpmaker creates a very flat bevel, and the Ken Onion makes the bevel more convex, but this technique produced similar results... an extraordinarily sharp and durable edge that was burr free at least at 120x magnification.

Understand, that my technique will not produce an edge that is quite as durable as the grinder/felt pad technique because the research showed that there was some work hardening that occurred by the speed and vibration of the felt pad, but the edge will still be more durable than an edge with a burr.
I read that article and found it very interesting and informative. Everything you're saying here makes sense, as I have never been able to remove the burr 100% using just the stones. I always have to go to a strop to finish.

However, how do you explain guys like Jim Ankerson sharpening to only 400 grit on SiC and getting a BESS test result of around 50? He's able to do this on both basic high carbon steels (Superblue) as well as high-vanadium super steel (S110v). The article indicates that at this BESS score you can be absolutely sure there is no burr or wire edge.

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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby Zatx » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:58 pm

ejames13 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:31 pm

I read that article and found it very interesting and informative. Everything you're saying here makes sense, as I have never been able to remove the burr 100% using just the stones. I always have to go to a strop to finish.

However, how do you explain guys like Jim Ankerson sharpening to only 400 grit on SiC and getting a BESS test result of around 50? He's able to do this on both basic high carbon steels (Superblue) as well as high-vanadium super steel (S110v). The article indicates that at this BESS score you can be absolutely sure there is no burr or wire edge.

I'm not familiar with Jim Ankerson, so I can't speak to him specifically, but if he does achieve this level of sharpness, I will posit that these much higher grits are outside of the parameters that the researcher at knifegrinders.au used in his study. There may be something else going on with the burr when it is more substantial. In other words, I don't know.

I could make a guess given what I do know, and please understand this is a shot in the dark. Maybe at this higher grit, the carbide (or vanadium, etc.) is larger, so if the testing media of the BESS machine makes direct contact with this carbide it produces a clean cut? Without putting one of his edges in an electron scanning microscope we can't know for sure what is going on.

My next purchase is one of these BESS testers when I get it I'll look him up and attempt to repeat his results. Just from an anecdotal perspective, one of the sharpest (feeling) edges I've ever produced was with a Norton combination India stone which is relatively coarse, and I didn't use a micro bevel or strop.

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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby ejames13 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:07 pm

Zatx wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:58 pm
ejames13 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:31 pm

I read that article and found it very interesting and informative. Everything you're saying here makes sense, as I have never been able to remove the burr 100% using just the stones. I always have to go to a strop to finish.

However, how do you explain guys like Jim Ankerson sharpening to only 400 grit on SiC and getting a BESS test result of around 50? He's able to do this on both basic high carbon steels (Superblue) as well as high-vanadium super steel (S110v). The article indicates that at this BESS score you can be absolutely sure there is no burr or wire edge.

I'm not familiar with Jim Ankerson, so I can't speak to him specifically, but if he does achieve this level of sharpness, I will posit that these much higher grits are outside of the parameters that the researcher at knifegrinders.au used in his study. There may be something else going on with the burr when it is more substantial. In other words, I don't know.

I could make a guess given what I do know, and please understand this is a shot in the dark. Maybe at this higher grit, the carbide (or vanadium, etc.) is larger, so if the testing media of the BESS machine makes direct contact with this carbide it produces a clean cut? Without putting one of his edges in an electron scanning microscope we can't know for sure what is going on.

My next purchase is one of these BESS testers when I get it I'll look him up and attempt to repeat his results. Just from an anecdotal perspective, one of the sharpest (feeling) edges I've ever produced was with a Norton combination India stone which is relatively coarse, and I didn't use a micro bevel or strop.
I don't think the carbide explanation is viable as he achieved the same result with Superblue. Here's the thread: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ext ... s.1304276/

It seems odd that lower grit would yield better results for minimizing/removed the burr, as typically that's easier with higher grit stones.

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Re: What's your trick to remove a wire edge?

Postby vivi » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:55 pm

I've never had issues removing burrs with bench stones and no strop, but I'm only using 60x magnification.
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