Thick vs Thin Blades? How They Effect Performance on Spyderedge and PE

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Right...meat man tests really prove more about blade angle than anything else to me. I'm sure the Yojimbo 2 would perform very well in those tests but it still doesn't make the best box knife because of how thick the blade is and how low the hollow grind is.

Just like all these other variables, we can't say that a grind performs well in all uses just because it can cut up a side of pork. Soft/pliable materials are not a good test of blade geometry IMO because they separate very easily. You need a material that is rigid and deeper than the blade is tall.

Missed it do you have a link?

[Deadboxhero]

Right...meat man tests really prove more about blade angle than anything else to me. I'm sure the Yojimbo 2 would perform very well in those tests but it still doesn't make the best box knife because of how thick the blade is and how low the hollow grind is.

Just like all these other variables, we can't say that a grind performs well in all uses just because it can cut up a side of pork. Soft/pliable materials are not a good test of blade geometry IMO because they separate very easily. You need a material that is rigid and deeper than the blade is tall.

If the hollow was deeper (thinner behind the edge) 0.010"-0.005"and your edge is under 15 dps

(say 10dps) it will laser cardboard despite being over .125" at the spine and a lower hollow grind.

[Evil D]

Right...meat man tests really prove more about blade angle than anything else to me. I'm sure the Yojimbo 2 would perform very well in those tests but it still doesn't make the best box knife because of how thick the blade is and how low the hollow grind is.

Just like all these other variables, we can't say that a grind performs well in all uses just because it can cut up a side of pork. Soft/pliable materials are not a good test of blade geometry IMO because they separate very easily. You need a material that is rigid and deeper than the blade is tall.

If the hollow was deeper (thinner behind the edge) 0.010"-0.005"and your edge is under 15 dps

(say 10dps) it will laser cardboard despite being over .125" at the spine and a lower hollow grind.

So you're saying a thinner/lower angle edge will make up for having a ridiculously thick spine? The spine has to follow the edge through the material being cut doesn't it?

[Deadboxhero]

Right...meat man tests really prove more about blade angle than anything else to me. I'm sure the Yojimbo 2 would perform very well in those tests but it still doesn't make the best box knife because of how thick the blade is and how low the hollow grind is.

Just like all these other variables, we can't say that a grind performs well in all uses just because it can cut up a side of pork. Soft/pliable materials are not a good test of blade geometry IMO because they separate very easily. You need a material that is rigid and deeper than the blade is tall.

If the hollow was deeper (thinner behind the edge) 0.010"-0.005"and your edge is under 15 dps

(say 10dps) it will laser cardboard despite being over .125" at the spine and a lower hollow grind.

So you're saying a thinner/lower angle edge will make up for having a ridiculously thick spine? The spine has to follow the edge through the material being cut doesn't it?

Make up? Nah

More important and very underrated? Yes

Ridiculously thick? .124-.140 is not ridiculous. Will a .250" make a veggie laser with a 0.002" bte? Nah, prolly make a killer bushcrafting blade. There is definitely a certain point It doesn't work. My point was make the hollow grind on the yojimbo deeper and make the edge angle more acute and you'll be surprised by how important behind the edge thickness is over just grind height and stock thickness.

[Pelagic]

This is minor but I also like hollow grinds for cutting certain things like cheese. A FFG can have overall thinner geometry but will be subject to extra friction and suction while making a cut as the flat primary grind makes full contact (flush) with the cheese. The hollow grind, given it's not too thick behind the edge will glide through more easily. For the life of me I can't think of an example other than cheese. Still transitioning to normal life after working nights lol.

[Deadboxhero]

I like this,

I'll revisit this in the future and do a regrind on a yojimbo or make a similar knife. That sounds like a cool video.

Right...meat man tests really prove more about blade angle than anything else to me. I'm sure the Yojimbo 2 would perform very well in those tests but it still doesn't make the best box knife because of how thick the blade is and how low the hollow grind is.

Just like all these other variables, we can't say that a grind performs well in all uses just because it can cut up a side of pork. Soft/pliable materials are not a good test of blade geometry IMO because they separate very easily. You need a material that is rigid and deeper than the blade is tall.

If the hollow was deeper (thinner behind the edge) 0.010"-0.005"and your edge is under 15 dps

(say 10dps) it will laser cardboard despite being over .125" at the spine and a lower hollow grind.

So you're saying a thinner/lower angle edge will make up for having a ridiculously thick spine? The spine has to follow the edge through the material being cut doesn't it?

[Evil D]

I'm not debating if thinner edges and behind the edge thickness is more or less important. All other things being equal, thinner blade stock and grind will still perform better.

[JacksonKnives]

I'm not debating if thinner edges and behind the edge thickness is more or less important. All other things being equal, thinner blade stock and grind will still perform better.

Just remember to add "for the stuff I use a knife on."

I favor thin blades too, since I'm nearly always breaking down boxes or slicing apples. That's the most critical application I have (thick edges dragging too much), but it doesn't mean everyone else is doing the same stuff.

It's usually easier to do a job with an edge that's thinner than it needs to be than one that's thicker than it needs to be, but "all else being equal" is a pretty big gimmie. Wood carvers, deer skinners, rope cutters, cheese knives and cucumber slicers all favor different blade shapes and geometry. Pelagic's example of cheese knives is a perfect case in point.
We don't worry about material getting stuck to the side of the blade, but if you're slicing veggies with a wide chef's knife all day it starts to add up. The smiths in Seki have come up with all sorts of crazy grinds to deal with different materials and tasks. Sure, you can do those tasks with a 10" Sabatier if that's all you have, but that doesn't make it a perfect knife.

[Evil D]

I'm not debating if thinner edges and behind the edge thickness is more or less important. All other things being equal, thinner blade stock and grind will still perform better.

Just remember to add "for the stuff I use a knife on."

I favor thin blades too, since I'm nearly always breaking down boxes or slicing apples. That's the most critical application I have (thick edges dragging too much), but it doesn't mean everyone else is doing the same stuff.

It's usually easier to do a job with an edge that's thinner than it needs to be than one that's thicker than it needs to be, but "all else being equal" is a pretty big gimmie. Wood carvers, deer skinners, rope cutters, cheese knives and cucumber slicers all favor different blade shapes and geometry. Pelagic's example of cheese knives is a perfect case in point.
We don't worry about material getting stuck to the side of the blade, but if you're slicing veggies with a wide chef's knife all day it starts to add up. The smiths in Seki have come up with all sorts of crazy grinds to deal with different materials and tasks. Sure, you can do those tasks with a 10" Sabatier if that's all you have, but that doesn't make it a perfect knife.

We can probably all come up with a slew of exceptions. You wouldn't want a wood splitting maul that's only 1/8 inch thick, but the original topic was about knife performance and I assumed slicing performance specifically. I guess with the cheese you may want a blade that's thick enough to allow a deep curve in the hollow grind, but this only makes sense if you're slicing cheese which is soft and separates easily. You may want something thinner for sectioning a whole wheel of cheese.

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Yeah everyone can go round and round on this topic.

The Spydiechef cuts cheese very well it has thin blade stock and tall walls or whatever you call the flats. As far as folders go I am going no thicker than my full sized Lionspy in Elmax.

Here is something else to consider as well the finish of the blade

Satin (Which to me is raw looking like the manufacturers have left out a finishing step in making it a blade, it just looks unfinished and crude like it is not a finish at all but a step along the way to actually polishing or stone washing the blade)

Bead Blasted which I think is the worst I have even had Elmax rust with Bead Blasted finish.

Stone Washed (Which I like very much)

Polished . The Lionspy is a polished ELMAX 4.5 MM Thick blade with a nice polished finish it has resisted rusting where as Bead Blasted Elmax has not in my use.

I do wish Spyderco would polish more of their blades as this does effect how it moves through material. I also wish they would Stone Wash more of there blades like Chris Reeve does with his (Which in my opinion he has mastered along with S35VN)

In my opinion DLC is not a great finish either when it comes to reducing the drag when slicing through materials.

I can take a DLC Military and a Satin finished Military and the Satin will outperform the DLC in terms of moving through material with less effort being applied to overcome the drag.

DLC Looks Awesome especially when used in conjunction with orange or red scales but is a performance reducer.

Below from Best as in least friction and drag to worst friction and drag provided by finish of blade.

In my experience a Polished Blade will move through any material I would use a folder on more easily with the least amount of friction and drag and also provide a finish that will prevent rust as liquids are less prone to laying on the surface and tend to roll off and are far easier to just wipe off. Heck you can even wax the blade if you want to.

Spyderco would improve the corrosion of their tool steel knives like 52100 by just polishing them.

Next Stone washed

Next Satin Finish

Next Bead blasted

Next DLC

[Evil D]

I like when they use opposing grind line directions. I can't think of a model off the top of my head but they'll do the tang in horizontal grind lines and the blade in the typical vertical grind. It does make the horizontal lines scratch easier and more noticeably but they're nice looking.

I've also found that DLC isn't exactly slippery but it's a whole lot better than the rough bed liner crap that some other brands use (ESEE I'm looking at you).

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

I like when they use opposing grind line directions. I can't think of a model off the top of my head but they'll do the tang in horizontal grind lines and the blade in the typical vertical grind. It does make the horizontal lines scratch easier and more noticeably but they're nice looking.

I've also found that DLC isn't exactly slippery but it's a whole lot better than the rough bed liner crap that some other brands use (ESEE I'm looking at you).

I agree with you on that ESEE Rough bed liner is a perfect description. I actually gave away a 7" ESEE Knife to my boss because of that, he does allot of Hunting and can beat the heck out of a knife in the woods. He loves it and could care less about the finer consideration we all give to knives.

[Donut]

Cardboard is really a strange beast, but we run into it often. Out of 100 different materials you cut (that you CAN cut through), cardboard probably has the most problems.

I want to say cardboard is designed to be difficult to cut or bend or rip or.... it's just made to be difficult. It is supposed to be maximum strength with minimum weight.


I've sharpened a stanley style razor blade... and you can get some nice performance out of a crappy steel that's made super thin. You can 40 degree micro bevel it and stuff. It makes a pretty good hot rod.

Has anyone documented what steel different brand blades are made out of? Maybe it's worth looking into the razor holders with the best ergo's.

[JD Spydo]

There are most certainly certain blade styles that do much better with thinner blades. In the culinary sector I would prefer a thin blade in a paring knife, fillet knife and I also have a Victorinox boning knife that I got from a butcher/meat cutter friend of mine and it cuts like a laser.

Now in most cases I prefer a thicker blade in most applications and especially with Spyderedged blades. My old Spyderco AUS-8, full SE Catcherman. One exception to that rule is that MBS-26 in full Spyderedge even does good in a thin, full SE blade but most of the time I like a thicker blade with a full Spyderedge and like EVIL D says the Spyderedge works exceptionally well with a full flat grind>> and it doesn't seem like any type of blade steel affects that rule either.

I wish Spyderco would do some type of Hawkbill with a full flat grind in full Spyderedge>> I bet it would win a lot of fans quickly.

Now when it comes to outdoor type fixed blades I find that blades with a thicker spine seem to work better in those applications.

[Ankerson]

Lets look at two knives.

A) Hollow grind, 3 inches tall in blade height, the grind extends 3/4 of the way up the blade, the blade is .010 behind the edge, and the blade is 2mm thick at the spine.

B) Hollow grind, 3 inches tall in blade height, the grind extends 3/4 of the way up the blade, the blade is .010 behind the edge, and the blade is 10mm thick at the spine.


If you take both of those knives and cut 1/2 inch manila rope, you probably won't see any difference at all in performance between the two, because the area of the blade that is being used is practically identical up until the grind reaches the full thickness of the blade stock towards the spine.

However, if you take both of those blades and try to cut down the side of this box...


....then you're going to see some significant wedging happening with both knives, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the knife with the 10mm spine is going to wedge much harder. You can change this scenario around and use different grind types and blade heights and such and still come to similar conclusions. Often times the material being cut plays as much of a part on performance as the knife you're using.

If you want to compare two different grinds in this scenario, it doesn't really make a difference because the ultimate thickness of the blade stock is what will be the deciding factor in how hard the blade wedges into the box. JD loves the old Catcherman's hollow grind, but the reality is more about how thick that blade stock was overall vs something like a Manix 2 hollow grind (or say, a Strider) that uses thicker blade stock and lower on the grind. If Spyderco decides to make a 1.5mm thick Manix 2 with a high hollow grind that goes closer to the top of the blade then yeah it'll most likely slice better than the current FFG version, but then it also isn't a fair comparison because the cross section of the two blades is so different.

We can't simply say one grind is better or even usually better than another, there are just too many factors to consider. I love my FFG's but if you start with thicker blade stock and you leave the grind thick behind the edge and compare it to a Sebenza hollow grind, the Sebenza will perform better. If you start with a 2mm blade and take it down to nearly a zero grind then the FFG will perform better.

Heck, just think about the common razor blade, it has no blade grind at all, just an edge bevel on an otherwise flat blade, but because the entire blade is so thin, it'll out slice just about any knife blade. Still, the same truths apply to a razor blade...if you grind that same blade FFG or hollow or whatever, how you grind it and what you're slicing still matter (though with a blade that thin you'll probably struggle to see any difference lol).

LOL....

Have you ever tried to cut through one of those?

OMG... They are very hard to cut with just about anything that is a knife.

Luckily they are sent back as is to the warehouses.

[Evil D]

LOL....

Have you ever tried to cut through one of those?

OMG... They are very hard to cut with just about anything that is a knife.

Luckily they are sent back as is to the warehouses.

Ha, yeah I was just trying to give an extreme example. Those things may as well be made of plywood. I have actually tried to cut them, and if you have a thin enough blade and you cut at a sharp angle it's doable but even with the thinnest blade it takes a crazy amount of pressure and even some sawing motion to get it done. Just the paper they use alone is super heavy and practically card stock, then you've got the flutes and all that starch. Back when I used to work in a box factory we had this account we made boxes for that were used to box and ship some kind of electric motor, and they were made from heavy paper and double walled, they were so sturdy that once you folded them up into a box they would just about support your weight if you stood on the edges of the box. I could cut those with a pocket knife but you had to do it from an angle and you had to have a thin blade. Even utility knives would struggle and that's if the blade was long enough to go completely through to the other side of the panel you're cutting. Stuff like that usually took a couple passes with a utility knife to cut completely through.

[500Nitro]

I use an Endura to cut those boxes up - but I always cut along a bend or corner - and it works well / ok.

As you say, trying to cut then up is hard.

[JD Spydo]

I use an Endura to cut those boxes up - but I always cut along a bend or corner - and it works well / ok.

As you say, trying to cut then up is hard.

Have you guys ever tried one of Spyderco's Hawkbill or Reverse S type blades to cut thick cardboard with? I'm totally convinced that a larger scale Dodo model with a longer/wider/thicker blade would make that job much easier I'm sure of it.

I've even thought that a Hawkbill with a more rigid handle and a thicker, full flat grind blade would be helpful as well. The Dodo model was such a great overall design and for as short of a blade as it had I was always intrigued at how efficient it is for as small of a blade as it is. I just know in my gut that a reverse S design like the Dodo with a longer, wider and thicker blade would even perform better yet.

[500Nitro]

No, I haven't and probably won't, only because I think a hawkbill is a limiting shape blade and
another SE blade (in my case Endura but plenty of others) will not only do the job but also allow
you do do other things with the knife.

But I know where you are coming from and yes, as a tool in your pocket for warehouse duties only
I think it would be great - also great for opening up boxes along the tape line.

Dodo, oh yes, a big dodo would be great.