Why Don't You Like Framelocks?

[markg]

I like them and prefer them over liner locks. Your hand supports the lock when your grip the handle, that is not possible with a liner lock. I don't mind the unfinished or unbalanced look, I do like that clip is normally on the lock side and this produces a smooth surface reducing pocket wear. I do prefer G-10/Ti frame locks.

The only real knock I have on them is price, Ti is not cheap.

[The Mastiff]

I have a few including some expensive ones and I don't dislike them but lockbacks like my Enduras get most of my daily use. I'm not big on liner locks either but that doesn't stop me from liking my Millie and G.Bradley in M4. I find myself getting more set in my ways as I age and have to remember to switch out to carry others if for no other reason than to justify my keeping them.

Joe

[Doc Dan]

One day, one day it will happen if you carry and use them long enough. Either the knife will open when you drop it and stab you, or it will open in your pocket and cut your leg or hand very badly, or it will fail when you need to use it a bit harder than normal. I'll take a high tech back lock or a CBBL any day over a frame or liner lock.

[ugaarguy]

One day, one day it will happen if you carry and use them long enough. Either the knife will open when you drop it and stab you, or it will open in your pocket and cut your leg or hand very badly, or it will fail when you need to use it a bit harder than normal. I'll take a high tech back lock or a CBBL any day over a frame or liner lock.

I've batoned my ZT 0562CF through small pieces of seasoned hard wood to make kindling at a church even when I accidentally left my hatchet at home. How much harder do I need to use it? That knife also has a far stronger detent than any other frame lock I own. It's not coming open unless I deliberately push on the flipper tab. How about my friend and mentor who's carried a small Sebenza, literally everyday, almost as long as I've been alive? He's cut into 55 gallon poly drums with it in emergencies. How much harder does he need to use that knife, and how much longer does he need to carry it before he experiences one of the catastrophic failures you're certain will happen?

[Pelagic]

I don't understand how a spyderco knife would open in one's pocket. I wholeheartedly believe Vivi and Doc Dan when they say it happens. I just can't wrap my head around how. Weak detent from factory? I once had a M4 military, which was a factory 2nd. The only flaw I found in it was that the detent was EXTRA strong. As in, it almost wasn't flickable. But once you put enough strength to it and it finally let go, it would launch open incredibly fast. This just leads me to believe that there is a certain amount of variation in detent strength (that is probably checked for by QC) that is occasionally noticeable from knife to knife. What else could cause the knife to open in the pocket?

Let me reiterate that I do not doubt the validity of Vivi's or Doc Dan's claims AT ALL, I am just genuinely curious.

[ugaarguy]

I don't understand how a spyderco knife would open in one's pocket. I wholeheartedly believe Vivi and Doc Dan when they say it happens. I just can't wrap my head around how. Weak detent from factory? I once had a M4 military, which was a factory 2nd. The only flaw I found in it was that the detent was EXTRA strong. As in, it almost wasn't flickable. But once you put enough strength to it and it finally let go, it would launch open incredibly fast. This just leads me to believe that there is a certain amount of variation in detent strength (that is probably checked for by QC) that is occasionally noticeable from knife to knife. What else could cause the knife to open in the pocket?

Let me reiterate that I do not doubt the validity of Vivi's or Doc Dan's claims AT ALL, I am just genuinely curious.

Pelagic, I don't doubt that it's happened to some people, but I do take objection with Doc Dan guaranteeing that it will happen. That's a bold claim, which requires bold evidence.

[Pelagic]

I don't understand how a spyderco knife would open in one's pocket. I wholeheartedly believe Vivi and Doc Dan when they say it happens. I just can't wrap my head around how. Weak detent from factory? I once had a M4 military, which was a factory 2nd. The only flaw I found in it was that the detent was EXTRA strong. As in, it almost wasn't flickable. But once you put enough strength to it and it finally let go, it would launch open incredibly fast. This just leads me to believe that there is a certain amount of variation in detent strength (that is probably checked for by QC) that is occasionally noticeable from knife to knife. What else could cause the knife to open in the pocket?

Let me reiterate that I do not doubt the validity of Vivi's or Doc Dan's claims AT ALL, I am just genuinely curious.

Pelagic, I don't doubt that it's happened to some people, but I do take objection with Doc Dan guaranteeing that it will happen. That's a bold claim, which requires bold evidence.

Oh, that it will CERTAINLY happen? Yeah that's a tough one, lol. But I certainly respect a "better safe than sorry" stance on the matter.

[Tims]

I’ve personally never had it happen but I wouldn’t carry a knife with a weak detent either. That knife is defective and if I carry it and get bitten that’s on me.
A scenario I could see that would cause an otherwise operational framelock/linerlock to open in the pocket would be if the detent hole in the blade filled with grit, causing the ball to not seat properly. Within the realms of possibilty with tip down carry but preventable with proper maintenance.

[Daveho]

Frame locks are fine, they just aren’t the flavour of the month currently and the community is moving away from the currently over saturated titanium framelock thanks to the offerings from the Chinese over the last few years.
Personally I like frame locks but they like any knife have limitations and do require the operator to exercise some caution.

[anagarika]

I agree wit Doc although I am not saying it will certainly happen to each person.

What makes detent based design more dangerous is that once detent is overcome, the blade won’t close. Check how much distance is the blade tip from handle on this position right before detent action suck the blade in.

Now compare that with how far the blade tip is when the lockback will suck the blade in.

Lastly, consider Murphy’s law.

If the detent is made very strong, some people will complain it’s not smooth, etc. a lockback doesn’t have to be made extra strong, when worn in becomes smooth and yet the pull distance will not get reduced or change. I know it is, or one can ask Joe / Mastiff about his old Enduras.

For me, the main point is asymmetrical feeling. I just cannot like it.

[Crux]

Frame locks are too heavy and I like other handle materials on both sides.

[Ankerson]

Frame Locks and Liner Locks are my favorite lock types.

[Extra330SC]

Frame Locks and Liner Locks are my favorite lock types.

Agree 100%
When done probably liner and frame locks are absolutely a joy to use and very safe! I have many of both ...but especially like the framelocks on my CF/Ti and Fluted titanium Millies!

James

[vivi]

I don't understand how a spyderco knife would open in one's pocket. I wholeheartedly believe Vivi and Doc Dan when they say it happens. I just can't wrap my head around how. Weak detent from factory? I once had a M4 military, which was a factory 2nd. The only flaw I found in it was that the detent was EXTRA strong. As in, it almost wasn't flickable. But once you put enough strength to it and it finally let go, it would launch open incredibly fast. This just leads me to believe that there is a certain amount of variation in detent strength (that is probably checked for by QC) that is occasionally noticeable from knife to knife. What else could cause the knife to open in the pocket?

Let me reiterate that I do not doubt the validity of Vivi's or Doc Dan's claims AT ALL, I am just genuinely curious.

Not everyone carries their knives in a pocket. During the warmer months I carry them IWB much more than I do in pockets.

The last time a knife opened on me it was a CTS204P Military carried in the side pocket of my pants:



I was hiking, and I went to grab it to cut something, and noticed it had popped open on me. That Millie had a stiffer detent than others I previously own. It was the last time I carried it.

The time before that I was carrying my Para 2 DLC clip up IWB at work, wearing slacks. Cut something with it in a hurry then clipped it to my rear pocket, because my left hand was busy doing something else and clipping folders IWB sometimes requires two hands. About half an hour later I went to cut something else with it, and cut my hand instead. It had popped open just from walking around a level surface. This was the third time that knife had come open unwanted - twice while carrying it, once after tossing it in the frame bag of my bicycle.

I've also had two Kershaw framelocks come open on me, one IWB, the other RFP.

A lot of this might come down to my life style. I rock climb, hike, jog mountain trails, mountain bike, etc. Someone that spends all their time sitting at a desk might not have the same experience as someone that doesn't think twice about jumping off boulders.

Once this issue repeated itself, I started testing out my knives by holding them in the closed position with the spine of the blade facing down, and giving them a good shake. Every single detent based lock knife I have tried this with pops open after giving it a vigorous shake. Try it out yourself.

Another test you can do is this: Tie a piece of string to the opening hole, then attach the other end to a force meter. Measure the amount of force a stout lockback takes to pull open VS a compression lock, liner lock or framelock. The numbers make it obvious which is safer.

To me there's simply no reason to purchase a detent based lock. They are unsafe. They are accidents waiting to happen. There are a wealth of superior locks on the market, that keep the knife safely open AND closed.

I've had numerous liner locks, frame locks and compression locks fail in various ways, at keeping the knife closed. I've also had a few fail at keeping the knife open, like the Buck / Strider collabs from a while back.

Sometimes when I get home from work, I empty my pockets and toss everything on my bed. I've had multiple detent based lock folders pop open from something as gentle as landing on a soft mattress from 2-3' away. Putting a knife like that in my pocket to me would be like carrying one of those Taurus guns that fails the drop test, albeit with less catastrophic results.

I stopped buying detent-based locks after swearing off the Millie & Para 2, and that also influenced my decision to EDC fixed blades. I only use kydex sheaths, never leather, and I purchased a heat gun so I can reform the sheaths for stronger retention. I find fixed blades in a kydex sheath with strong retention safer than folders.

If it isn't fixed (with strong sheath retention, another safety issue!), backlock, tri-ad lock or CBBL, I do not buy it, regardless of how much I like the design. The original ATR is a personal favorite, and I always wanted one with G10 scales and a different clip design. I passed on the ATR 2 due to the lock alone, everything else about it looked perfect to me.

If the Native Chief gets a compression lock, it will never enter my collection.

I have no issue closing any of these locks one handed. Even my Tri-ad locks.

If they work for you, great. I hope they continue to do so, and my wish is that everyone here can safely carry and use whichever model they prefer. But I've made my choice.

[ugaarguy]

...
A lot of this might come down to my life style. I rock climb, hike, jog mountain trails, mountain bike, etc. Someone that spends all their time sitting at a desk might not have the same experience as someone that doesn't think twice about jumping off boulders.

Once this issue repeated itself, I started testing out my knives by holding them in the closed position with the spine of the blade facing down, and giving them a good shake. Every single detent based lock knife I have tried this with pops open after giving it a vigorous shake. Try it out yourself.

Another test you can do is this: Tie a piece of string to the opening hole, then attach the other end to a force meter. Measure the amount of force a stout lockback takes to pull open VS a compression lock, liner lock or framelock. The numbers make it obvious which is safer.

To me there's simply no reason to purchase a detent based lock. They are unsafe. They are accidents waiting to happen. There are a wealth of superior locks on the market, that keep the knife safely open AND closed.

I've had numerous liner locks, frame locks and compression locks fail in various ways, at keeping the knife closed. I've also had a few fail at keeping the knife open, like the Buck / Strider collabs from a while back.

Sometimes when I get home from work, I empty my pockets and toss everything on my bed. I've had multiple detent based lock folders pop open from something as gentle as landing on a soft mattress from 2-3' away. Putting a knife like that in my pocket to me would be like carrying one of those Taurus guns that fails the drop test, albeit with less catastrophic results.

If they work for you, great. I hope they continue to do so, and my wish is that everyone here can safely carry and use whichever model they prefer. But I've made my choice.

I just tried your shake test, and I simulated your bed toss test by throwing with moderate force several folders onto my own bed.

Results:
ZT 0562CF - cant get it to budge
Spyderco Sage 2 - can't get it to budge
Spyderco Dice - can't shake it open, but sometimes pops it open when thrown onto the bed
CRKT Pilar SS and Pilar G10 - can be shaken open with wrist / arm flick technique
Steel Will Resident F15-91 - can be shaken open pretty easily

The -91 Resident doesn't surprise me, because it has a pretty weak detent. I don't particularly care because this is a slender, light, pretty knife. It only ever gets carried in slacks or suit pants. I use it almost exclusively as a steak knife when going out to eat at nice places. The Pilars don't surprise me either - they have rather heavy blades that can build up quite a bit of momentum with a good flick. Since I'm not jumping off of boulders, I doubt I doubt that they're going to accidentally open. The Dice has a pretty weak detent, it's on a ball bearing pivot, and it has a flipper tab. That's another knife that's relegated to dress pants carry. I'll test some more knives later.

I definitely understand why you've made your choice.

Ohh, and the new CQI linerless blurple G10 Native 5 S110V is on my list for 2019. I briefly had a Native 5 S30V G10 but the clip wouldn't stay tight unless I used slightly longer screw that I borrowed from a Benchmade TSEK. I called Spyderco about the problem and actually talked to Eric himself about it. I offered to send the knife in so he could look at it, but I was told it wouldn't be necessary because, without ever seeing the knife, he knew there was nothing wrong with it. That was the start of my several years hiatus from Spyderco.

[Pelagic]

I don't understand how a spyderco knife would open in one's pocket. I wholeheartedly believe Vivi and Doc Dan when they say it happens. I just can't wrap my head around how. Weak detent from factory? I once had a M4 military, which was a factory 2nd. The only flaw I found in it was that the detent was EXTRA strong. As in, it almost wasn't flickable. But once you put enough strength to it and it finally let go, it would launch open incredibly fast. This just leads me to believe that there is a certain amount of variation in detent strength (that is probably checked for by QC) that is occasionally noticeable from knife to knife. What else could cause the knife to open in the pocket?

Let me reiterate that I do not doubt the validity of Vivi's or Doc Dan's claims AT ALL, I am just genuinely curious.

Not everyone carries their knives in a pocket. During the warmer months I carry them IWB much more than I do in pockets.

The last time a knife opened on me it was a CTS204P Military carried in the side pocket of my pants:



I was hiking, and I went to grab it to cut something, and noticed it had popped open on me. That Millie had a stiffer detent than others I previously own. It was the last time I carried it.

The time before that I was carrying my Para 2 DLC clip up IWB at work, wearing slacks. Cut something with it in a hurry then clipped it to my rear pocket, because my left hand was busy doing something else and clipping folders IWB sometimes requires two hands. About half an hour later I went to cut something else with it, and cut my hand instead. It had popped open just from walking around a level surface. This was the third time that knife had come open unwanted - twice while carrying it, once after tossing it in the frame bag of my bicycle.

I've also had two Kershaw framelocks come open on me, one IWB, the other RFP.

A lot of this might come down to my life style. I rock climb, hike, jog mountain trails, mountain bike, etc. Someone that spends all their time sitting at a desk might not have the same experience as someone that doesn't think twice about jumping off boulders.

Once this issue repeated itself, I started testing out my knives by holding them in the closed position with the spine of the blade facing down, and giving them a good shake. Every single detent based lock knife I have tried this with pops open after giving it a vigorous shake. Try it out yourself.

Another test you can do is this: Tie a piece of string to the opening hole, then attach the other end to a force meter. Measure the amount of force a stout lockback takes to pull open VS a compression lock, liner lock or framelock. The numbers make it obvious which is safer.

To me there's simply no reason to purchase a detent based lock. They are unsafe. They are accidents waiting to happen. There are a wealth of superior locks on the market, that keep the knife safely open AND closed.

I've had numerous liner locks, frame locks and compression locks fail in various ways, at keeping the knife closed. I've also had a few fail at keeping the knife open, like the Buck / Strider collabs from a while back.

Sometimes when I get home from work, I empty my pockets and toss everything on my bed. I've had multiple detent based lock folders pop open from something as gentle as landing on a soft mattress from 2-3' away. Putting a knife like that in my pocket to me would be like carrying one of those Taurus guns that fails the drop test, albeit with less catastrophic results.

I stopped buying detent-based locks after swearing off the Millie & Para 2, and that also influenced my decision to EDC fixed blades. I only use kydex sheaths, never leather, and I purchased a heat gun so I can reform the sheaths for stronger retention. I find fixed blades in a kydex sheath with strong retention safer than folders.

If it isn't fixed (with strong sheath retention, another safety issue!), backlock, tri-ad lock or CBBL, I do not buy it, regardless of how much I like the design. The original ATR is a personal favorite, and I always wanted one with G10 scales and a different clip design. I passed on the ATR 2 due to the lock alone, everything else about it looked perfect to me.

If the Native Chief gets a compression lock, it will never enter my collection.

I have no issue closing any of these locks one handed. Even my Tri-ad locks.

If they work for you, great. I hope they continue to do so, and my wish is that everyone here can safely carry and use whichever model they prefer. But I've made my choice.

Thank you for clarifying, I completely understand. Ya know, you made me realize that I usually carry a byrd in front of my (detent based) spydie's in my pocket. For all I know it has prevented this phenomenon from happening to me!



Basically the byrd is in the way so the pm2 or military in usually carrying couldn't open even if it wanted to.

[awa54]

I use my knives for knife-appropriate tasks, so the only liner or frame lock issues I have ever experienced are one incident of a tip-down blade coming open in my pocket (fortunately without any major damage, just a small hole in the pants) and some very minor lock-stick on my Sage 2, which smoothed out after just a few carry sessions.

In light of that, I have no lack of confidence when carrying my frame or liner lock knives. So long as the overall design is one I like, the lock type isn't a deal breaker.

[Ankerson]

Did the shake test also,

CRK LG Inkosi…. Didn't budge

S110V Military.... Didn't budge

Avocate…. Didn't budge

K2.... Didn't budge

OLD very well used S30V Military.... Took like 6 hard flicks before it let go.

[cwp]

I concur and I will also add that frame locks and liner locks can fail under hard use as pointed out somewhat in #3. They can also open accidentally in your pocket or purse and cause serious injuries. All of this is well known but people keep demanding them.

My wife nearly had her fingertip taken off when a knife came open in her purse -- but ironically, it was a back lock rather than a frame lock or liner lock.

[Crux]

I concur and I will also add that frame locks and liner locks can fail under hard use as pointed out somewhat in #3. They can also open accidentally in your pocket or purse and cause serious injuries. All of this is well known but people keep demanding them.

My wife nearly had her fingertip taken off when a knife came open in her purse -- but ironically, it was a back lock rather than a frame lock or liner lock.

Or a comp lock.