Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

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The Mastiff
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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby The Mastiff » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:46 am

Put your shades on for this one than, ZAPP Z-Max, Rex 86 Analog.
69.5rc
10% tungsten with 5% vanadium + cobalt. You are finding some new ground to cover. :) That should be an interesting steel. I do like those tungsten steels generally. Hopefully you will be letting us know how it works out.

You must be really good at networking. If you were a banker from an ivy league school you would be working on your first billion ! :D

Joe

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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:14 pm

sal wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:37 pm
Working on Shawn's model.

sal
I got the prototype today, I'll give ya a call tommorow.

-shawn
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Triple B Handmade Knives

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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Enactive » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:08 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:14 pm
sal wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:37 pm
Working on Shawn's model.

sal
I got the prototype today, I'll give ya a call tommorow.

-shawn
Exciting stuff :spyder: :cool:

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sal
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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby sal » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:10 pm

Hi Shawn,

I won't be back in the office until Tuesday.

sal

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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:21 pm

I have been very busy using and testing 4 different heats/melts of CPM 15v.

There are more complications than book smart forum folks realize. There is always a certain level of detail that can only be gained from doing and not reading.

It's common knowledge among experienced knife makers that every batch of steel used needs to be characterized to the HT used.
This is why makers pick a steel and buy lots of it from the same melt so they don't have to characterize different pieces and can use the same protocol they built curves with.
Not everyone is aware of this detail, even other knife makers.

Again Spec sheets are guidelines not gospel.

So the when someone uses a spec sheet as "the realm of all possiblities for what hardnesses the steel can be used at" you know they have more to learn and are covering the fact they don't understand the "why" or "how" of what's really going on.

Now, details like this aren't usually discussed with the public at this level because people don't have all the information to put it in to context and they may misconstrue or spread misinformation since they don't have the experience to understand it's place.

I must admit, Its not information a consumer needs to interrogate makers with I'll be upset if I see folks doing this, don't be a "smarty-pants". It's just a interesting peak into this world at this level of detail.

I have shared the special 15v heat treatment with Spyderco that allows the steel to get much harder(65-67rc), stronger and more stable than what I used from the spec sheet when first testing the steel with the standard protocol that only got maxed to 63-64rc and was more brittle, less stable,softer and more burr stubborn with higher retained austenite.
Again, Rockwell hardness doesn't tell you what the Microstructure is.

The protocol numbers themselves are meaningless unless translated properly.

So to translate the HT to a production knife will require using the same melt and confirming the curves with their heat treaters and their process and equipment.
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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:34 pm

I had done some blind sharpeness testing with a group of experienced freehand sharpers I trust and respect.

I had given them no information about the CPM 15v and just asked them to sharpen however they like to get it sharp using any stone at their disposal.

Just see what works and what doesn't.

The CPM 15v was at 65.5 HRC and was thinned down to 0.010" by with a intial bevel angle at 15dps.
CPM 15v has ~22% Vanadium carbide volume after HT versus ~17% in K390 and 10v.


They all noticed right away that the high end, Naniwa Chosera ceramic water stone was not working well with the CPM 15v
(Alumina hardness. ~2600hv, Vanadium carbide ~2800-3000hv)

Very little swarf was made, feedback on the stone was more glassy and it seemed like the 15v was squeegeeing the stone.

It was able to get sharp eventually off the ceramic stones they used since these are experienced sharpeners.

However, the edge was less crisp and more overpolished and smooth at the given grit since it was burnishing more than cutting and breaking the carbides to shape rather than cutting them to shape.

When they switched to using bonded diamond and CBN from vitrified to resin bond types. There was no noticable difficulty in sharpening to any other steel.

The feedback, cutting speed, All just like a normal steel on a normal stone.

The edges were also sharper and crisper.

The very important take away here is that the end user needs to be educated to get CPM 15V to work.

Otherwise the best HT and Geometry in the world can't solve a poorly made edge due to not using the right tools and techniques. That is a big reason why this is a difficult steel to get into the hands of the average Joe's.
Big Brown Bear
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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Bloke » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:16 pm

Many Thanks, Shawn!

Great insight as to what happens behind the scenes and very informative. :cool:
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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby The Meat man » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:27 pm

I love being able to get a peek into your mind Shawn. :cool:
You do amazing work and I can't wait to see what you and Sal are cooking up. ;)

Great stuff - thanks for sharing!
- Connor

"You live and learn. At any rate, you live."

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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Baron Mind » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:02 pm

Shawn, you are one of those people that really make this hobby special. Hobby for people like me anyway, a little more than that for you I'm sure. But the handful of people like you who take things to the next level add so much more depth and intrigue to the knife world. I appreciate you.

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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:18 pm

Thanks guys, it's enjoyable seeing the community grow and get more interested and detailed with things.
Big Brown Bear
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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby sal » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:25 am

Hi Shawn,

Eric, Gail and I had dinner with the Crucible/Niagara boys tonight. You were part of the discussion with 15V and SPY27.

sal

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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:33 am

sal wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:25 am
Hi Shawn,

Eric, Gail and I had dinner with the Crucible/Niagara boys tonight. You were part of the discussion with 15V and SPY27.

sal
Very exciting.
You know Sal, I wanted a steel like SPY27 for a long time

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/spr ... t-15647423

I was a huge fan of Cobalt Special Steel from Takefu, I was always dissatisfied there was no US equivalent that sharpened as nicely.

I've noticed the trend in the mule runs with you guys testing steels like B75P, B70p, MBS-26, Cobalt Special.
Searching that sweet spot for sharpeners.

Now we get the PM version that is superior to the Cobalt Special and Super Gold Powder Steel.

The "Cobalt Spyder" Spy27

2020 is a great time for edge guys.

CPM 15v will be great for guys that want more horsepower and can handle it.
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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:34 am

2016, Cobalt Special Steel, really takes me back.

Time flies, seemed like yesterday.
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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Woodpuppy » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:10 am

Deadboxhero wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:21 pm
It's common knowledge among experienced knife makers that every batch of steel used needs to be characterized to the HT used.
This is why makers pick a steel and buy lots of it from the same melt so they don't have to characterize different pieces and can use the same protocol they built curves with.
Not everyone is aware of this detail, even other knife makers.
This concept parallels handloading, and is why volume loaders buy powders in bulk. New powder lots need to be approached “from the beginning” to confirm load performance. Plinking loads in .44 spl won’t reveal much of a difference, but rifle loads absolutely will. Of coarse most handloaders don’t have a test barrel or the means to measure pressure... whereas you will have the necessary tools to measure the critical things.
:spyder: My other blade is a Kelly Perfect :spyder:

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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby emanuel » Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:57 am

Is there an approximate time of the year when we might get to see a sneak-peek of the design? :D

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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:24 pm

Pete did a cut test with CPM 15v at 63rc from a Russian maker.

It was able to outcut the higher hardness Maxamet.


15v is a nice sweet spot,
With special heat treatment protocols it will cut even longer and have more edge stability and higher hardness.

I've been enjoying using a small knife I made for myself.


I got to get one over to Sal for him to try.

Also one for Joe :D
Big Brown Bear
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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Deadboxhero » Tue May 19, 2020 6:39 pm

sal wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:25 am
Hi Shawn,

Eric, Gail and I had dinner with the Crucible/Niagara boys tonight. You were part of the discussion with 15V and SPY27.

sal
I got the latest Prototype, I like that very much.

I'll send more details in an email next week.




-Shawn
Big Brown Bear
[url]https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston[/ur]
Triple B Handmade Knives

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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby Cycletroll » Wed May 20, 2020 10:23 am

Eagerly following these developments. Thanks Shawn & Sal!
:)

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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby The Mastiff » Wed May 20, 2020 12:46 pm

Also one for Joe
I'm one of those. Still a knife knut and steel junkie too. :)

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Re: Sal, Can we get CPM 15v?

Postby SubMicron » Wed May 20, 2020 1:05 pm

Wow, this thread is exciting!

I'm on board with 15V for sure... it's a "must own" for me.


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