China and tariffs

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
cbrstar
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Re: China and tariffs

Postby cbrstar » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:30 pm

SF Native wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:30 pm
cbrstar wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:45 pm
My only concern is a sub $100 US economy model could effect the premium image of the much more expensive US models. A company that tried something simular was Gibson guitars and they shot themselves in the foot with it.
Is the $55 US made UK penknife in BD1N steel hurting the sales and image of the para 3? I don’t think so.
Well its only one model. But if they replace the 10 or more chinese models it could make the brand look not as luxury as it did before. Plus the UK pen knife serves a specific purpose because of UK knife laws, so it applies to target audience that can't easily buy and carry a PM3.

Its effected other companies like Gerber. When I was a kid and knew nothing about knives, even I had heard about how legendary a Gerber was, but somewhere along the way they started to make things cheaper and faster, and now even i'm not interested in their higher end models.

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rwasham
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Re: China and tariffs

Postby rwasham » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:45 pm

Make it where you will for the price you will. I'll probably still buy it, I may just buy less.

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Re: China and tariffs

Postby Cycletroll » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:10 pm

Sal,
I for one don't buy Chinese made knives (although I've been tempted by many of the fine Spyderco made there).
I am perfectly happy to pay for American sourced quality and love supporting Made in America products. That being said I do have quite a few Taichung, Seiko, etc made knives. I know Taiwan is kind of a grey area as concerns China but I hope to support their toehold in free market dynamics ;)

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Ankerson
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Re: China and tariffs

Postby Ankerson » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:46 pm

Well I personally believe whatever you need to do is fine.

Spyderco could move more manufacturing to either the US or Taiwan as needed.

BornIn1500
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Re: China and tariffs

Postby BornIn1500 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:49 pm

Hmmm, could this be why the Bow River seems to be stalled... It's in tariff limbo?

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Re: China and tariffs

Postby The Mastiff » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:57 pm

I'm not one to think I can tell a successful businessman how to run the business he made very successfully. I will say the President is correct in doing what he is doing and I hope he goes much further. Not to force me to only buy American goods but to try to even the playing field. Too many generations of politicians have allowed things to get out of hand and it has hurt this country. The more we give the less they respect us as a nation. The PRC in particular has weaponized their economy and they are using our own money to do more than just put Americans out of work. A military confrontation is a given in the future between our nations and all the trade in the world won't change that. They have to humiliate the US militarily at some time to get over that old "sick man of asia" inadequacy that haunts their dreams and until then it's trade with one hand and a dagger in the other waiting it's opportunity. Even knowing what it will cost them.

It's bigger than inexpensive trade goods.

Joe

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Calicoast
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Re: China and tariffs

Postby Calicoast » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:53 am

Liquid Cobra wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:05 pm

The knives made in China don’t appeal to me at all.

And never will.

If I can't afford a USA / JAPAN made knife, I will just wait until I have the funds to purchase.

I cant support anything China.
Maybe it's just principal.
C

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Re: China and tariffs

Postby Bodog » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:58 am

The Mastiff wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:57 pm
I'm not one to think I can tell a successful businessman how to run the business he made very successfully. I will say the President is correct in doing what he is doing and I hope he goes much further. Not to force me to only buy American goods but to try to even the playing field. Too many generations of politicians have allowed things to get out of hand and it has hurt this country. The more we give the less they respect us as a nation. The PRC in particular has weaponized their economy and they are using our own money to do more than just put Americans out of work. A military confrontation is a given in the future between our nations and all the trade in the world won't change that. They have to humiliate the US militarily at some time to get over that old "sick man of asia" inadequacy that haunts their dreams and until then it's trade with one hand and a dagger in the other waiting it's opportunity. Even knowing what it will cost them.

It's bigger than inexpensive trade goods.

Joe


I agree with this. I'm actually an advocate of increasing tariffs on Chinese goods to 50-60%, the same as Iran. China sure hasn't shown itself to be of help to us aside from putting our companies out of business and convincing people to support China because they want more cheap crap. I think tariffs on most countries should be raised, there's no country out there that puts America above them. Only America puts America first. These tariffs are in the right direction but they need to go farther. It will hurt at first but when the ship finally rights itself, our kids and grandkids will thank us, as long as they haven't been brainwashed into wanting global controllers and manipulators the same as the generations have been since WW2.

We need to heed George Washington's advice and avoid all foreign entanglements and treaties. We need to put America first without stepping on other countries. In order to do that we need to stop other countries from stepping on us. I think removing Congresspeople that have dual citizenship is the correct first step. If you aren't an American and only an American, you should not dictate what happens in America. If you aren't an American and only American, i can't be mad at you for putting another country above America. But i can say that you shouldn't have a say in the direction of this country. I don't care if China gets mad. I don't care if Germany gets mad. We should pull all foreign aid and cut all free trade for everyone. Our own country is hurting enough as it is and we need to rebuild our own manufacturing base to right that. These tariffs are a step in that direction.
They who dance are thought mad by those who do not hear the music.

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Re: China and tariffs

Postby spyderwolf » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:22 am

BornIn1500 wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:49 pm
Hmmm, could this be why the Bow River seems to be stalled... It's in tariff limbo?
My thoughts exactly.
Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt.

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Re: China and tariffs

Postby arty » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:31 am

I don't want to get into a political debate and won’t. If you remember your history, tariffs contributed to the Great Depression. They might have worked 50 years ago, but too much industry is now international, with manufacturing cutting across borders.

Tarriffs make it difficult for companies like Spyderco to plan production, since they can’t know where the next target will be. They cut into profits and as a consumer of Spyderco knives, I would rather see their production costs held in check.

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Re: China and tariffs

Postby Ankerson » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:39 am

arty wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:31 am
I don't want to get into a political debate and won’t. If you remember your history, tariffs contributed to the Great Depression. They might have worked 50 years ago, but too much industry is now international, with manufacturing cutting across borders.

Tarriffs make it difficult for companies like Spyderco to plan production, since they can’t know where the next target will be. They cut into profits and as a consumer of Spyderco knives, I would rather see their production costs held in check.

It's a double edged sword, one that has been degrading the US over the past decades.

The US has been moving fast forward to a service industry Country, that's NOT good for anyone other than the top 1%. Contrary to popular belief they don't create anything for anyone but themselves to manufacture more personal wealth. They have been selling out our Country for decades.

Things have gotten way out of balance and they do need to be brought back in line.

The US needs to start thinking about the US 1st again.

We need to stop supporting other Countries at the expense of our own, even China now has a middle class while the US's middle class is shrinking more ever year.

There does need to be a lot of massive changes, one being a complete revamp of Corporate Law making the Individuals personally reasonable and accountable by removing the protection of the Corporate umbrella.

Another would be Term Limits for Congress, that also will go a long way towards cleaning out Washington and hopefully get people in there that will represent us again.
Last edited by Ankerson on Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:02 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Calicoast
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Re: China and tariffs

Postby Calicoast » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:46 am

arty wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:31 am
I don't want to get into a political debate and won’t. If you remember your history, tariffs contributed to the Great Depression. They might have worked 50 years ago, but too much industry is now international, with manufacturing cutting across borders.

Tarriffs make it difficult for companies like Spyderco to plan production, since they can’t know where the next target will be. They cut into profits and as a consumer of Spyderco knives, I would rather see their production costs held in check.

My understanding is that the tariffs came in at the end, which didn't help either. There were several factors, but the main cause being all the loans that were given out to Europe after the war, (help rebuild their infrastructure) and then defaulting on their loans, which affected the banks, etc.

I understand Spyderco likes to plan production, and tariffs cut into profits. But what's the trade off for that again?
C

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Ankerson
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Re: China and tariffs

Postby Ankerson » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:57 am

Bodog wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:58 am
The Mastiff wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:57 pm
I'm not one to think I can tell a successful businessman how to run the business he made very successfully. I will say the President is correct in doing what he is doing and I hope he goes much further. Not to force me to only buy American goods but to try to even the playing field. Too many generations of politicians have allowed things to get out of hand and it has hurt this country. The more we give the less they respect us as a nation. The PRC in particular has weaponized their economy and they are using our own money to do more than just put Americans out of work. A military confrontation is a given in the future between our nations and all the trade in the world won't change that. They have to humiliate the US militarily at some time to get over that old "sick man of asia" inadequacy that haunts their dreams and until then it's trade with one hand and a dagger in the other waiting it's opportunity. Even knowing what it will cost them.

It's bigger than inexpensive trade goods.

Joe


I agree with this. I'm actually an advocate of increasing tariffs on Chinese goods to 50-60%, the same as Iran. China sure hasn't shown itself to be of help to us aside from putting our companies out of business and convincing people to support China because they want more cheap crap. I think tariffs on most countries should be raised, there's no country out there that puts America above them. Only America puts America first. These tariffs are in the right direction but they need to go farther. It will hurt at first but when the ship finally rights itself, our kids and grandkids will thank us, as long as they haven't been brainwashed into wanting global controllers and manipulators the same as the generations have been since WW2.

We need to heed George Washington's advice and avoid all foreign entanglements and treaties. We need to put America first without stepping on other countries. In order to do that we need to stop other countries from stepping on us. I think removing Congresspeople that have dual citizenship is the correct first step. If you aren't an American and only an American, you should not dictate what happens in America. If you aren't an American and only American, i can't be mad at you for putting another country above America. But i can say that you shouldn't have a say in the direction of this country. I don't care if China gets mad. I don't care if Germany gets mad. We should pull all foreign aid and cut all free trade for everyone. Our own country is hurting enough as it is and we need to rebuild our own manufacturing base to right that. These tariffs are a step in that direction.

I absolutely agree with BODOG and Joe 100%.

BODOG pointed out something that is correct.

People in Congress need to be US Citizens 100%, and yes they need to remove those who are not.

Also any in Congress who are not 100% in support of the United States Of America need to be removed, if they don't put America 1st then they need to get out. They are traitors or worse of the USA and are a threat to the USA and National Security.
Last edited by Ankerson on Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

ekastanis
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Re: China and tariffs

Postby ekastanis » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:58 am

First:
sal wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:17 pm
I would prefer to avoid the "good or bad" politics of the tariffs in this discussion.
Then:
The Mastiff wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:57 pm
I'm not one to think I can tell a successful businessman how to run the business he made very successfully. I will say the President is correct in doing what he is doing ...
Bodog wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:58 am
I agree with this. I'm actually an advocate of increasing tariffs on Chinese goods to 50-60%...
:rolleyes:

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Re: China and tariffs

Postby TomAiello » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:04 am

Cycletroll wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:10 pm
I know Taiwan is kind of a grey area as concerns China but I hope to support their toehold in free market dynamics ;)
Are you thinking of Hong Kong?

Taiwan and China are two separate countries, which have been formally at war since 1946, with no armistice ever signed between the two.

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anycal
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Re: China and tariffs

Postby anycal » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:45 am

I don't have good answers, but this is how I see things...

Not sure who said this but, politically the ability to do good is limited, whereas the ability to do bad is unlimited.

No one is listening to each other. People are feeling left out. The sentiment is that if something doesn't work, let's go back. There isn't a unifying vision for moving forward. This is not good for democracy.

Most big problems today are global. With global landscape (economy, ecology, and environment) we need a different way of thinking. I don't know what this would look like, but given the problems we are facing, difficult decisions need to dealt with on global level. I feel that there is still room for patriotism, but not so much for isolationism.

When it comes to jobs, traditional manufacturing jobs, I think globalism is less to blame than technology. Maybe it started with globalism, but looking at the present and thinking about the future, technology and automation are having a much greater impact, in my opinion.

We are living in a different era. World is complicated, but ultimately, we only have one. And I am generally an optimist...
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Re: China and tariffs

Postby 500Nitro » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:56 am

"Most big problems today are global. With global landscape"

One of the reasons for making things in China is lower cost of production.
Not just so profits are higher but because the consumer is forever chirping "cheaper, cheap, cheaper"!
)On that subject I do think the majority of consumers don't know quality when it stares them in the face
and know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
3 x Endura 1 SE, 1 x Endura ? CE and a Black Pacific Salt. Want Aqua Salt, Fish Hunter and a Pacific Salt Yellow.

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Re: China and tariffs

Postby Bodog » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:44 pm

500Nitro wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:56 am
"Most big problems today are global. With global landscape"

One of the reasons for making things in China is lower cost of production.
Not just so profits are higher but because the consumer is forever chirping "cheaper, cheap, cheaper"!
)On that subject I do think the majority of consumers don't know quality when it stares them in the face
and know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
As sad as what it may be, you are correct. I'd rather buy once, cry once than buy twice, cry thrice. Would i rather buy my kid a backpack that will last for 5 years and then be capable of being given to someone else who can use it for several more years or buy a new cheap piece of crap every year? Which is better in the long run? But this mentality permeates our culture. We would rather have a shoddily built house that will last 60 years with nice appliances than a house that will last 300 years with no appliances. I spec'ed a custom home build by several contractors. $300,000 was the cut off. Two of the general contractors quoted 2500 sq ft homes with the latest and greatest granite and tile and whatnot, built within 3 months. Then i came across a GC who immigrated from England. He quoted the same price but with far less high end amenities with a minimum of 10 months to build with a4 month extension if necessary. I asked him why. He said because the foundation would be 18" throughout rather than 18" on around the edges and 12" in the center. He'd use 2x6 boards throughout rather than only on the exterior walls with 2x4 in the center, he'd built the exterior walls with concrete blocks rather than thin brick veneer, hed use only US citizens for labor, the anchors, strapping and foundation screws would all be galvanized, the insulation would be something like R30 or more throughout rather than R30 in the ceiling and R15 in the walls, and the joists in the roof would be ensured to fully seat across the entire roof rather than only the joists on the exterior perimeter. He brings in an engineer for each house he builds to design the mechanical ductwork to maximize efficiency, used only double plane glass, each house was not only energy star certified but offered a guarantee that energy consumption analyses would remain the same for 25 years, and offered a 50 year warranty for all work which quintupled any of his competitors. He said in the English countryside they built houses to last for generations without needing much rework because they thought in terms of generations and the future and what they could give to their kids to survive. He wanted to bring that level of quality to the US and it saddened him to think a country this young could be so short sighted as to want anything else.

The plan fell through and i sold the property before building, but I'd made my mind up as to who i would choose. The reason i ended up declining and selling the property is because i saw the level of work being done by the homes around that property. In 50 years it would be a ghetto and my house would be great in the midst of a bunch of crumbling crap. Not worth passing to my kids, not worth passing to my grandkids. So i sold the property and moved on.
They who dance are thought mad by those who do not hear the music.

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Ankerson
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Re: China and tariffs

Postby Ankerson » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:55 pm

BODOG,

Yeah, buy quality and buy it once and have it last instead of cheaping out and having to replace it a number of times, actually spending MORE in the long run.

You are correct though about England etc, they have house/building that have been standing for a 1,000 years. Same with Japan and some other Countries.

They don't build things to last like they used to in general.
Last edited by Ankerson on Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SF Native
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Re: China and tariffs

Postby SF Native » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:12 pm

And... we are off the rails.
Yay, political discussion...


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