LC200N or BD1N

[Tucson Tom]

Mr Glesser designed and produced the Military, but we who know better, want to form a syndicate to refine it?

You've got a point. I hope Sal has thick skin. We, after all, are all armchair quarterbacks.

[supracor]

And an impulse hardened 1084 Military? Impulse hardened 1084 can reach 70 HRc :D

[Bodog]

I’m confused.

Mr Glesser designed and produced the Military, but we who know better, want to form a syndicate to refine it?

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant!

? I want to answer this but can't.

[Eli Chaps]

I wouldn’t go betting my house on it but I suspect that most folks would have a hard time distinguishing between s90v, s30v and bd1n in the limited test that Bloke described...or in everyday use for that matter. I certainly find it hard to tell them apart in use...at least in edge performance. I think the sharpening differences are more easily noted than the performance differences.

Regarding s30v and buyer fatigue, yeah, I’m sure there’s some of that but I can’t really think of any one steel I would choose to replace it. What I would enjoy is more variety. Instead of using s30v for 90% of the folders, I’d rather have a mix of s30v, xhp, rwl34 etc. That would give me some fun choices and make me less “fatigued” with the models that did come in s30v.

Were price not a consideration, I would say one of the best edc steels currently available would be Vanax SC. I’ve found it to have better edge retention than s30v with much improved toughness and better sharpening response in a completely rust proof steel. That’s a pretty good list of characteristics for an edc steel...or any steel for that matter. Unfortunately it comes at a price point that makes it unrealistic for use as a baseline steel. I bet we will see some similar offerings coming down the pike soon in more affordable steels. We’ll see.

And another Amen.

I have a standard M2LW in BD1 and the Cuttlery Shoppe exclusive in S90V. Had the standard first and used the heck out of it but did too much internet reading and convinced myself the steel was just too lacking for my refined tastes. Got the exclusive not just for the steel but loved the color too, but yeah, the steel was big attractant. Carried the heck out of it. Then in brief moment of honest self-reflection I got to thinking I never really noticed much of a difference. So, just out of curiosity, tossed the old standard back in my pocket. The exclusive is back in the box and has been there for some time now. I really like S90V and while it was challenging to sharpen I didn't think it was too bad, at least compared to what I'd been hearing, but that BD1 comes right up in literally a couple minutes. I don't routinely "hard use" my knives but I do use them every day and I do cut some amount of cardboard pretty much every day and I cannot tell the difference in performance.

I haven't sharpened the standard model for, I don't know, three or four weeks I guess. I just checked it and it will still shave arm hair in some spots on the blade, but not others. But, it zipped right through my morning apple and some thinner cardboard. The geometry just keeps it cutting. I don't cut manila rope or slice open cement bags so I'm doing just fine.

Heck, make the standard steel offerings BD1 and VG10 and I'd be a happy camper. Beyond steel junkies and knife nerds, I think way too much emphasis is placed on steel types and I think the whole "this steel is old now and just not up to the asking price" is tiresome. I mean, where does that train end? Again, I love all the options and explorations, I'm just talking about this general sense in the knife community that steels become passe is getting nuts and driving prices ever higher.

[sal]

Mr Glesser designed and produced the Military, but we who know better, want to form a syndicate to refine it?

You've got a point. I hope Sal has thick skin. We, after all, are all armchair quarterbacks.

I get a lot of good information from you "armchair quarterbacks".

sal

[MichaelScott]

Never mind.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Michael and sal, if you were to both speculate and estimate, do you think it is only a matter of time and greater interest before we see a flood of assorted fixed blades and folders made by various knife companies, using LC200N stainless steel?

[Bodog]

SEF,

Cronidur 30 is available and is equivalent and has been around for awhile. Z-finite is also equivalent and makers are using it in knives not really meant for use like the salt series. X15TN is close. If you look at those steels you'll find more in a range of knives. Spyderco, so far, is sticking to the "entirely rustproof knife" concept with LC200N.

But you can find equivalents out there NOT marketed at entirely rustproof, more like "more than reasonably rust resistant." I don't know the market but i have an idea these steels could be sourced and tried out on a production platform, similar to S110V.

[Doc Dan]

One of the things we need to realize is that most of the people on this forum are not the average Spyderco buyer. Most people are better served by BD1 or S30V (wide difference there!). BD1 is easy to sharpen and it holds a decent enough edge and is not a problem steel. S30V can be challenging to sharpen for most people and it holds a great edge. Steels like S90V or M390 would cause most buyers to experience frustration when it came time to re-sharpen the blade, and become dissatisfied with Spyderco in general. Some might even think those were poor steels because they could not put an edge on them.

[ugaarguy]

One of the things we need to realize is that most of the people on this forum are not the average Spyderco buyer. Most people are better served by BD1 or S30V (wide difference there!). BD1 is easy to sharpen and it holds a decent enough edge and is not a problem steel. S30V can be challenging to sharpen for most people and it holds a great edge. Steels like S90V or M390 would cause most buyers to experience frustration when it came time to re-sharpen the blade, and become dissatisfied with Spyderco in general. Some might even think those were poor steels because they could not put an edge on them.

I think that ease of sharpening for the average buyer is why Spyderco is still using VG-10 as the base steel on the very mainstream Delica and Endura. I'm also a bit surprised that the Native 5 LW base steel isn't BD1 like the Manix 2 LW. So, I guess in some ways I can see the validity of moving from S30V down to BD1/BD1N as the base steel on most USA and Taiwan models. I wouldn't mind comparing BD1N to 14C28N. The upcoming 13C26 / AEB-L Urban and a BD1 or BD1N UKPK might allow for a similar comparison.

[jordan.steffanson]

You guys should try the UKPK in BD1N, its at a great price point, although I still think the K390 urban is the better valued knife at this point.

[Doc Dan]

We are all waiting on the Urban 13C26/AEB-L sprint run.

[Doc Dan]

One of the things we need to realize is that most of the people on this forum are not the average Spyderco buyer. Most people are better served by BD1 or S30V (wide difference there!). BD1 is easy to sharpen and it holds a decent enough edge and is not a problem steel. S30V can be challenging to sharpen for most people and it holds a great edge. Steels like S90V or M390 would cause most buyers to experience frustration when it came time to re-sharpen the blade, and become dissatisfied with Spyderco in general. Some might even think those were poor steels because they could not put an edge on them.

I think that ease of sharpening for the average buyer is why Spyderco is still using VG-10 as the base steel on the very mainstream Delica and Endura. I'm also a bit surprised that the Native 5 LW base steel isn't BD1 like the Manix 2 LW. So, I guess in some ways I can see the validity of moving from S30V down to BD1/BD1N as the base steel on most USA and Taiwan models. I wouldn't mind comparing BD1N to 14C28N. The upcoming 13C26 / AEB-L Urban and a BD1 or BD1N UKPK might allow for a similar comparison.

As for AEB-L/13C26 I will offer this without comment: http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/st ... hrn=1&gm=0

[Bodog]

One of the things we need to realize is that most of the people on this forum are not the average Spyderco buyer. Most people are better served by BD1 or S30V (wide difference there!). BD1 is easy to sharpen and it holds a decent enough edge and is not a problem steel. S30V can be challenging to sharpen for most people and it holds a great edge. Steels like S90V or M390 would cause most buyers to experience frustration when it came time to re-sharpen the blade, and become dissatisfied with Spyderco in general. Some might even think those were poor steels because they could not put an edge on them.

I think that ease of sharpening for the average buyer is why Spyderco is still using VG-10 as the base steel on the very mainstream Delica and Endura. I'm also a bit surprised that the Native 5 LW base steel isn't BD1 like the Manix 2 LW. So, I guess in some ways I can see the validity of moving from S30V down to BD1/BD1N as the base steel on most USA and Taiwan models. I wouldn't mind comparing BD1N to 14C28N. The upcoming 13C26 / AEB-L Urban and a BD1 or BD1N UKPK might allow for a similar comparison.

As for AEB-L/13C26 I will offer this without comment: http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/st ... hrn=1&gm=0

Man, based on that chart AEBL just looks better and better. Thank you.

[awa54]

We are all waiting on the Urban 13C26/AEB-L sprint run.

Wait, what? When is this one due out? and what scale color?

[Sharp Guy]

We are all waiting on the Urban 13C26/AEB-L sprint run.

Wait, what? When is this one due out? and what scale color?

http://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtop ... 1#p1252221

Coyote Brown

[ugaarguy]

One of the things we need to realize is that most of the people on this forum are not the average Spyderco buyer. Most people are better served by BD1 or S30V (wide difference there!). BD1 is easy to sharpen and it holds a decent enough edge and is not a problem steel. S30V can be challenging to sharpen for most people and it holds a great edge. Steels like S90V or M390 would cause most buyers to experience frustration when it came time to re-sharpen the blade, and become dissatisfied with Spyderco in general. Some might even think those were poor steels because they could not put an edge on them.

I think that ease of sharpening for the average buyer is why Spyderco is still using VG-10 as the base steel on the very mainstream Delica and Endura. I'm also a bit surprised that the Native 5 LW base steel isn't BD1 like the Manix 2 LW. So, I guess in some ways I can see the validity of moving from S30V down to BD1/BD1N as the base steel on most USA and Taiwan models. I wouldn't mind comparing BD1N to 14C28N. The upcoming 13C26 / AEB-L Urban and a BD1 or BD1N UKPK might allow for a similar comparison.

As for AEB-L/13C26 I will offer this without comment: http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/st ... hrn=1&gm=0

Having looked at similar composition graphs I believed that N690Co was similar to VG-10. Then someone directed me to this article by Larrin - https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/05/14/ ... -in-vg-10/. He concludes: "N690 is sometimes promoted as an alternative to VG-10 because they both have a 1.5% Co addition and a small vanadium addition. However, as I showed in the micrographs above it is the chromium content that most greatly controls the microstructure of these steels. I would see N690 as an alternative to 440C that has some tempering resistance and secondary hardening. I would not see it as an alternative to VG-10 unless the property you want to match is secondary hardening. N690 and VG-10 are different in terms of hardness, corrosion resistance, wear resistance, toughness, etc."

My understanding is that the lower Cr volume in 13C26 / AEB-L similarly results in a microstructure with smaller carbides which leads to increased toughness when compared to the 440 family of steels. I'm looking forward to hopefully getting one of the knives from this AEB-L sprint to try out the steel in a knife blade rather my DE safety razor blades that are most likely made from it (or 13C26 or 12C27).

[awa54]

We are all waiting on the Urban 13C26/AEB-L sprint run.

Wait, what? When is this one due out? and what scale color?

viewtopic.php?p=1252221#p1252221

Coyote Brown

OK had read that thread back when it started, but hadn't realized that it's *actually* going to happen...

[sparky2016]

Nothing to fool anyone. No laboratory. 150’ linear cardboard to cut. :)

Well, I can't tell if you're trying to be clever here, or what that is meant to represent. A typical light duty EDC user's day, or week? If that's the point,it's clearer just to say that.

I've made 150' of cuts in cardboard in about fifteen minutes. So it was about 1/40th of my workday, that day. So I wouldn't really call 150' a good test of a steel. The only way I can make sense of that is that you're trying to say that most people typically don't actually come that close to the limits of their steels.

[Pelagic]

AEBL doesn't go to 67, I wish it did but it's basically capped at 62-63. Even Nitro V which has a higher working hardness only hits 64rc.

I’m going to try BD1N soon. Like when a knife I want comes in that steel. I like BD1 and love S110V and ZDP 189. I like S35V better than S30V but I would rather have prices a little lower and have S30V than higher prices and better steel. S30V performance is very good for me and I like buying more new designs than new steel types. I have 2 Militaries in S30V and might add one in another steel someday but trying the two different ones in S30V was relatively cost effective. For me the design, lock type, blade grind and shape, and other materials in the knife are as much or more part of my purchase decision as the steel.

Would you think a military in BD1N at $110 could be better than a military in S30V at $170? I do. Especially if they make the BD1N at about 64RC.

What I'd really love to see is spyderco playing with heat treatments and giving disclaimers on the knives like they do with non-stainless steels. I think a military in AEBL at 66-67 RC would be extremely interesting, especially given that AEBL is a fraction of the cost of S30V. A military in AEBL at 67 RC at a $110 price point? Count me in. A military in AEBL at 60 RC at $160? Negative.

Then again, I'm odd. Im in a quandry. I think the military is my favorite knife design I've ever tried. I also think that with S30V its also one of the most overpriced. So what can be done? Would AEBL or BD1N drop the price significantly and give results that are at least almost as good as S30V in abrasion resistance while giving much better results with toughness and corrosion resistance and much improved edge stability? I think so.

People say they'd like to see a cliff stamp collaboration. I do too, but not in the normal sense of what most people think. I'd like to see what spyderco would do if they let cliff take a knife like the military and make it how he said to make it. Thinner behind the edge, different steel, higher hardness, specific heat treatment, more contouring on the handles. That's what I'd like to see rather than a new, unique overall design. Let him tweak an existing design to his specs. That'd be something to test, right there.

And screw it, let Ankerson do one too. Put them head to head in real world use. I'd love to see that. It'd be truly competitive contest, both with valid opinions and desired outcomes. I'd have to buy both.

https://youtu.be/eFzRgYPjbgk

AEBL +/- 66 RC, 8 DPS.

https://youtu.be/dD_Yk-YXdiI

This as well.