LC200N or BD1N

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Brackish
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Brackish » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:10 pm

I love the idea of LC200N, because of how resistant the steel is to corrosion. It has also seemed to perform as well as some of the more commonly used ‘higher end’ steels in some tests.

For my uses, corrosion resistance is more important than edge holding or toughness, or any other measuring metric. That being said, that’s what I feel like I need out of a knife. Someone else may need/want something completely different.

However, I do question whether or not people who express the need for extremely hard steels that can cut for hours and hours on end through weird materials are using the correct tool for a particular job. Can you cut up cardboard boxes all day with an EDC style knife? Sure, but why not just use a box cutter? Same goes for cutting cable (cable cutters) or other specialized applications I hear about people on here using their knives for. In my humble opinion, knives are really great general use cutting tools. They’re not meant for specialized uses in specific tasks, unless that’s their only purpose. At which point, again this is just my opinion, they cease being a ‘knife’ as we think of one and instead, they become a specialized tool. A carpet ‘knife’ is great at cutting carpet, but I sure as heck wouldn’t want to use it to peel an apple. Know what I mean?
Last edited by Brackish on Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Tucson Tom » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:45 pm

p_atrick wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:18 am
Rutger wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:38 am
And in my opinion the steel is totally worth the $6 extra.
I think that is a fair trade to make. I've never used 20CP, so I don't have much of a reference point. How does it sharpen? Is the SharpMaker still a good option to use with 20CP? I can't help but wonder if Spyderco bumped up their baseline steel, would the medium rods be sufficient to get a good edge on their knife in a reasonable amount of time. I realize that "reasonable" is highly subjective.
Don't confuse 20CP (which is more or less S90V) with 20CV (which is equivalent to M390 and CTS-204P). And don't feel bad about doing so, since this happens all the time.

Assuming you really meant to ask about 20CV, one of the strong points is that it is relatively easy to sharpen.

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Tucson Tom » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:52 pm

As far as my comment about Spyderco having 456 tons of S30V in a warehouse, I was just joking of course, but also underscoring the fact that there may be unseen factors in the supply chain that none of us know anything about.

As for LC200N -- I just don't see it as becoming a mainstream steel to take the place of S30V. It is great stuff, but its strong point is hard core corrosion resistance for things like salt series knives. My take on it is that it performs like VG10, but has extreme corrosion resistance being a nitrogen steel, but for general use, I'll still vote for 20CV.

And as for what brackish says about just using a box-cutter to cut up boxes, I had to laugh. I had just the same thought. It is hard to argue with using a cheap box cutter knife when there is the risk of hitting hidden staples and such. And I always have a couple handy in my workshop, so there is no excuse. I'll use whatever knife is in my pocket though when nothing else is handy.

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby p_atrick » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:06 pm

Tucson Tom wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:45 pm
p_atrick wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:18 am
Rutger wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:38 am
And in my opinion the steel is totally worth the $6 extra.
I think that is a fair trade to make. I've never used 20CP, so I don't have much of a reference point. How does it sharpen? Is the SharpMaker still a good option to use with 20CP? I can't help but wonder if Spyderco bumped up their baseline steel, would the medium rods be sufficient to get a good edge on their knife in a reasonable amount of time. I realize that "reasonable" is highly subjective.
Don't confuse 20CP (which is more or less S90V) with 20CV (which is equivalent to M390 and CTS-204P). And don't feel bad about doing so, since this happens all the time.

Assuming you really meant to ask about 20CV, one of the strong points is that it is relatively easy to sharpen.
Oops. Yeah, I meant 20CV. I didn't realize that it is known to be easier to sharpen. Can the same be said of M390 and CTS-204P?

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Vivi » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:36 pm

CTS204P sharpens unusually easy for the level of edge holding it shows.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Surfingringo » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:17 pm

I wouldn’t go betting my house on it but I suspect that most folks would have a hard time distinguishing between s90v, s30v and bd1n in the limited test that Bloke described...or in everyday use for that matter. I certainly find it hard to tell them apart in use...at least in edge performance. I think the sharpening differences are more easily noted than the performance differences.

Regarding s30v and buyer fatigue, yeah, I’m sure there’s some of that but I can’t really think of any one steel I would choose to replace it. What I would enjoy is more variety. Instead of using s30v for 90% of the folders, I’d rather have a mix of s30v, xhp, rwl34 etc. That would give me some fun choices and make me less “fatigued” with the models that did come in s30v.

Were price not a consideration, I would say one of the best edc steels currently available would be Vanax SC. I’ve found it to have better edge retention than s30v with much improved toughness and better sharpening response in a completely rust proof steel. That’s a pretty good list of characteristics for an edc steel...or any steel for that matter. Unfortunately it comes at a price point that makes it unrealistic for use as a baseline steel. I bet we will see some similar offerings coming down the pike soon in more affordable steels. We’ll see.

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby supracor » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:21 pm

The only thing that M390 and namesakes gain over S90V/S110V is a slightly higher corrosion resistance (obviously with the right HT); S90V has double the wear resistance of M390 at the same toughness level.


i want back Aus-8, with a good HT.

If all the S30V/VG10 Spydies were redone tomorrow with Aus-8 i'll buy all of them.
Last edited by supracor on Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Bloke » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:22 pm

Surfingringo wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:17 pm
Were price not a consideration, I would say one of the best edc steels currently available would be Vanax SC. I’ve found it to have better edge retention than s30v with much improved toughness and better sharpening response in a completely rust proof steel.
I couldn’t couldn’t agree more!

I’ve not been able to rust it. It’s tough as an old boot, goes to silly sharp without even trying and stays that way better than S30V and the polished bevel gang could use it for a mirror. :)
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby p_atrick » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:51 pm

Bloke wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:22 pm
...goes to silly sharp without even trying...
What type of sharpening equipment are you talking about? A Sharpmaker, King water stones, or a sophisticated setup like DBH? I'm sure the skill of the sharpener is more important than the equipment, but I'm just trying to place the ease in sharpening in relation to the type of equipment used. I think a good baseline steel wouldn't require an expensive sharpening setup. DBH has been promoting a simple setup on his YT channel (400-grit, 1000-grit, strop), but the metallic-bonded CBN stones don't sound cheap.

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Bloke » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:32 pm

p_atrick wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:51 pm
Bloke wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:22 pm
...goes to silly sharp without even trying...
What type of sharpening equipment are you talking about? A Sharpmaker, King water stones, or a sophisticated setup like DBH? I'm sure the skill of the sharpener is more important than the equipment, but I'm just trying to place the ease in sharpening in relation to the type of equipment used. I think a good baseline steel wouldn't require an expensive sharpening setup. DBH has been promoting a simple setup on his YT channel (400-grit, 1000-grit, strop), but the metallic-bonded CBN stones don't sound cheap.
Hi p_atrick,

I sharpen with a Hapstone Pro guided system. I initially set a 28-30deg bevel to a 1200grit Venev bonded CBN hone and very lightly stropped on stiff leather and chrome oxide which left an edge not quite hair whittling but not far off.

I’ve maintained it with the medium (brown) rods (no strop) on my SharpMaker and get a hair whittling, fairly aggressive edge. No doubt even easier if you went to fine or ultra fine rods. :)
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby kodai78 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:06 pm

I’m going to try BD1N soon. Like when a knife I want comes in that steel. I like BD1 and love S110V and ZDP 189. I like S35V better than S30V but I would rather have prices a little lower and have S30V than higher prices and better steel. S30V performance is very good for me and I like buying more new designs than new steel types. I have 2 Militaries in S30V and might add one in another steel someday but trying the two different ones in S30V was relatively cost effective. For me the design, lock type, blade grind and shape, and other materials in the knife are as much or more part of my purchase decision as the steel.
:spyder: Spydiechef, Schempp Bowie,Ti Fluted Military, Titanium Military, Native S30 V and G10, PM 2 in S35VN, and S110V, Manix 2 LW BD1, Sage 5, Positron black CPM S30V, Chaparral w/Raffir Noble scales, SuperLeaf VG 10, Ladybug H1, Dragonfly 2 in ZDP 189 and Superblue/420J1 and H1, Delica in ZDP 189, Clipitool Standard, the Cook’s knife VG10, Santorum, paring and utility knives, all in MBS 26. :spyder:

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Bodog » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:09 pm

kodai78 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:06 pm
I’m going to try BD1N soon. Like when a knife I want comes in that steel. I like BD1 and love S110V and ZDP 189. I like S35V better than S30V but I would rather have prices a little lower and have S30V than higher prices and better steel. S30V performance is very good for me and I like buying more new designs than new steel types. I have 2 Militaries in S30V and might add one in another steel someday but trying the two different ones in S30V was relatively cost effective. For me the design, lock type, blade grind and shape, and other materials in the knife are as much or more part of my purchase decision as the steel.
Would you think a military in BD1N at $110 could be better than a military in S30V at $170? I do. Especially if they make the BD1N at about 64RC.

What I'd really love to see is spyderco playing with heat treatments and giving disclaimers on the knives like they do with non-stainless steels. I think a military in AEBL at 66-67 RC would be extremely interesting, especially given that AEBL is a fraction of the cost of S30V. A military in AEBL at 67 RC at a $110 price point? Count me in. A military in AEBL at 60 RC at $160? Negative.

Then again, I'm odd. Im in a quandry. I think the military is my favorite knife design I've ever tried. I also think that with S30V its also one of the most overpriced. So what can be done? Would AEBL or BD1N drop the price significantly and give results that are at least almost as good as S30V in abrasion resistance while giving much better results with toughness and corrosion resistance and much improved edge stability? I think so.

People say they'd like to see a cliff stamp collaboration. I do too, but not in the normal sense of what most people think. I'd like to see what spyderco would do if they let cliff take a knife like the military and make it how he said to make it. Thinner behind the edge, different steel, higher hardness, specific heat treatment, more contouring on the handles. That's what I'd like to see rather than a new, unique overall design. Let him tweak an existing design to his specs. That'd be something to test, right there.

And screw it, let Ankerson do one too. Put them head to head in real world use. I'd love to see that. It'd be truly competitive contest, both with valid opinions and desired outcomes. I'd have to buy both.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby kodai78 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:28 pm

I agree, if you have the pricing right. A Military in BD1N at that price would be a must buy. Is the steel that large a percentage of the cost/price of a knife? I know there are differences in the material and machining cost but would BD1N really be 30% cheaper?
:spyder: Spydiechef, Schempp Bowie,Ti Fluted Military, Titanium Military, Native S30 V and G10, PM 2 in S35VN, and S110V, Manix 2 LW BD1, Sage 5, Positron black CPM S30V, Chaparral w/Raffir Noble scales, SuperLeaf VG 10, Ladybug H1, Dragonfly 2 in ZDP 189 and Superblue/420J1 and H1, Delica in ZDP 189, Clipitool Standard, the Cook’s knife VG10, Santorum, paring and utility knives, all in MBS 26. :spyder:

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Bodog » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:30 pm

kodai78 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:28 pm
I agree, if you have the pricing right. A Military in BD1N at that price would be a must buy. Is the steel that large a percentage of the cost/price of a knife? I know there are differences in the material and machining cost but would BD1N really be 30% cheaper?
Don't know specifically. I know AEBL is much, much cheaper than S30V. I don't know how it'd pan out on a bulk order. Same with BD1N.

As far as steel costs alone, i don't know. I really don't understand why a base military is so much more expensive than a base pm2. Two of my favorite designs.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Woodpuppy » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:38 pm

Hey I still think 154cm is a good steel. I was a bit perturbed when I found s30v had taken the base steel position, due to my past difficulties sharpening it. l’ve got it beat at this point, but still have an ingrained aversion to it. I haven’t used VG10 much, but I like it. What it lacks in longevity of edge it makes up for in sharpenability. I still would prefer steels I can readily maintain over steels that take great effort to sharpen. Thus far I’m very happy with M4 in both performance and sharpening, but find it does pit if I spend the day doing lawn work. That was a disappointing revelation. Hap40 is high on my list too. I don’t have any corrosion experience with it yet though.

Of the alternatives Bodog listed, the closest I’ve tried is CTS-BD1 (no N). It takes a wicked edge with minimal effort. If the nitrogen version is an improvement that should be an impressive steel.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Deadboxhero » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:30 pm

AEBL doesn't go to 67, I wish it did but it's basically capped at 62-63. Even Nitro V which has a higher working hardness only hits 64rc.
Bodog wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:09 pm
kodai78 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:06 pm
I’m going to try BD1N soon. Like when a knife I want comes in that steel. I like BD1 and love S110V and ZDP 189. I like S35V better than S30V but I would rather have prices a little lower and have S30V than higher prices and better steel. S30V performance is very good for me and I like buying more new designs than new steel types. I have 2 Militaries in S30V and might add one in another steel someday but trying the two different ones in S30V was relatively cost effective. For me the design, lock type, blade grind and shape, and other materials in the knife are as much or more part of my purchase decision as the steel.
Would you think a military in BD1N at $110 could be better than a military in S30V at $170? I do. Especially if they make the BD1N at about 64RC.

What I'd really love to see is spyderco playing with heat treatments and giving disclaimers on the knives like they do with non-stainless steels. I think a military in AEBL at 66-67 RC would be extremely interesting, especially given that AEBL is a fraction of the cost of S30V. A military in AEBL at 67 RC at a $110 price point? Count me in. A military in AEBL at 60 RC at $160? Negative.

Then again, I'm odd. Im in a quandry. I think the military is my favorite knife design I've ever tried. I also think that with S30V its also one of the most overpriced. So what can be done? Would AEBL or BD1N drop the price significantly and give results that are at least almost as good as S30V in abrasion resistance while giving much better results with toughness and corrosion resistance and much improved edge stability? I think so.

People say they'd like to see a cliff stamp collaboration. I do too, but not in the normal sense of what most people think. I'd like to see what spyderco would do if they let cliff take a knife like the military and make it how he said to make it. Thinner behind the edge, different steel, higher hardness, specific heat treatment, more contouring on the handles. That's what I'd like to see rather than a new, unique overall design. Let him tweak an existing design to his specs. That'd be something to test, right there.

And screw it, let Ankerson do one too. Put them head to head in real world use. I'd love to see that. It'd be truly competitive contest, both with valid opinions and desired outcomes. I'd have to buy both.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Bodog » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:43 pm

Deadboxhero wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:30 pm
AEBL doesn't go to 67, I wish it did but it's basically capped at 62-63. Even Nitro V which has a higher working hardness only hits 64rc.
Bodog wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:09 pm
kodai78 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:06 pm
I’m going to try BD1N soon. Like when a knife I want comes in that steel. I like BD1 and love S110V and ZDP 189. I like S35V better than S30V but I would rather have prices a little lower and have S30V than higher prices and better steel. S30V performance is very good for me and I like buying more new designs than new steel types. I have 2 Militaries in S30V and might add one in another steel someday but trying the two different ones in S30V was relatively cost effective. For me the design, lock type, blade grind and shape, and other materials in the knife are as much or more part of my purchase decision as the steel.
Would you think a military in BD1N at $110 could be better than a military in S30V at $170? I do. Especially if they make the BD1N at about 64RC.

What I'd really love to see is spyderco playing with heat treatments and giving disclaimers on the knives like they do with non-stainless steels. I think a military in AEBL at 66-67 RC would be extremely interesting, especially given that AEBL is a fraction of the cost of S30V. A military in AEBL at 67 RC at a $110 price point? Count me in. A military in AEBL at 60 RC at $160? Negative.

Then again, I'm odd. Im in a quandry. I think the military is my favorite knife design I've ever tried. I also think that with S30V its also one of the most overpriced. So what can be done? Would AEBL or BD1N drop the price significantly and give results that are at least almost as good as S30V in abrasion resistance while giving much better results with toughness and corrosion resistance and much improved edge stability? I think so.

People say they'd like to see a cliff stamp collaboration. I do too, but not in the normal sense of what most people think. I'd like to see what spyderco would do if they let cliff take a knife like the military and make it how he said to make it. Thinner behind the edge, different steel, higher hardness, specific heat treatment, more contouring on the handles. That's what I'd like to see rather than a new, unique overall design. Let him tweak an existing design to his specs. That'd be something to test, right there.

And screw it, let Ankerson do one too. Put them head to head in real world use. I'd love to see that. It'd be truly competitive contest, both with valid opinions and desired outcomes. I'd have to buy both.
https://youtu.be/eFzRgYPjbgk

AEBL +/- 66 RC, 8 DPS.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Deadboxhero » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:25 pm

It would be $500 per military then since Luong would have to heat treat each one by hand :D :D :D
Bodog wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:43 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:30 pm
AEBL doesn't go to 67, I wish it did but it's basically capped at 62-63. Even Nitro V which has a higher working hardness only hits 64rc.
Bodog wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:09 pm
kodai78 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:06 pm
I’m going to try BD1N soon. Like when a knife I want comes in that steel. I like BD1 and love S110V and ZDP 189. I like S35V better than S30V but I would rather have prices a little lower and have S30V than higher prices and better steel. S30V performance is very good for me and I like buying more new designs than new steel types. I have 2 Militaries in S30V and might add one in another steel someday but trying the two different ones in S30V was relatively cost effective. For me the design, lock type, blade grind and shape, and other materials in the knife are as much or more part of my purchase decision as the steel.
Would you think a military in BD1N at $110 could be better than a military in S30V at $170? I do. Especially if they make the BD1N at about 64RC.

What I'd really love to see is spyderco playing with heat treatments and giving disclaimers on the knives like they do with non-stainless steels. I think a military in AEBL at 66-67 RC would be extremely interesting, especially given that AEBL is a fraction of the cost of S30V. A military in AEBL at 67 RC at a $110 price point? Count me in. A military in AEBL at 60 RC at $160? Negative.

Then again, I'm odd. Im in a quandry. I think the military is my favorite knife design I've ever tried. I also think that with S30V its also one of the most overpriced. So what can be done? Would AEBL or BD1N drop the price significantly and give results that are at least almost as good as S30V in abrasion resistance while giving much better results with toughness and corrosion resistance and much improved edge stability? I think so.

People say they'd like to see a cliff stamp collaboration. I do too, but not in the normal sense of what most people think. I'd like to see what spyderco would do if they let cliff take a knife like the military and make it how he said to make it. Thinner behind the edge, different steel, higher hardness, specific heat treatment, more contouring on the handles. That's what I'd like to see rather than a new, unique overall design. Let him tweak an existing design to his specs. That'd be something to test, right there.

And screw it, let Ankerson do one too. Put them head to head in real world use. I'd love to see that. It'd be truly competitive contest, both with valid opinions and desired outcomes. I'd have to buy both.
https://youtu.be/eFzRgYPjbgk

AEBL +/- 66 RC, 8 DPS.
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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Tucson Tom » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:30 pm

Bodog wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:09 pm

Would you think a military in BD1N at $110 could be better than a military in S30V at $170? I do. Especially if they make the BD1N at about 64RC.

What I'd really love to see is spyderco playing with heat treatments and giving disclaimers on the knives like they do with non-stainless steels. I think a military in AEBL at 66-67 RC would be extremely interesting, especially given that AEBL is a fraction of the cost of S30V. A military in AEBL at 67 RC at a $110 price point? Count me in. A military in AEBL at 60 RC at $160? Negative.

Then again, I'm odd. Im in a quandry. I think the military is my favorite knife design I've ever tried. I also think that with S30V its also one of the most overpriced. So what can be done? Would AEBL or BD1N drop the price significantly and give results that are at least almost as good as S30V in abrasion resistance while giving much better results with toughness and corrosion resistance and much improved edge stability? I think so.

People say they'd like to see a cliff stamp collaboration. I do too, but not in the normal sense of what most people think. I'd like to see what spyderco would do if they let cliff take a knife like the military and make it how he said to make it. Thinner behind the edge, different steel, higher hardness, specific heat treatment, more contouring on the handles. That's what I'd like to see rather than a new, unique overall design. Let him tweak an existing design to his specs. That'd be something to test, right there.

And screw it, let Ankerson do one too. Put them head to head in real world use. I'd love to see that. It'd be truly competitive contest, both with valid opinions and desired outcomes. I'd have to buy both.
I like everything that Bodog is saying here. I too have a great admiration for the Military. And the idea of letting Cliff Stamp or Ankerson fine tune an existing design to produce a hot rod variant sounds really interesting. No telling what Spyderco (or either of those two) would say about it.

As far as a Military in BD1N at $110 -- it sounds great, but I wonder what the cost breakdown to make a knife looks like. What part of the cost is the blade steel? I have no idea, and I couldn't possibly say if it could yield such a savings. How much is markup by the dealers? Beats me.

But I'll be keeping my eye out for an interesting knife in BD1N ....

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Re: LC200N or BD1N

Postby Bloke » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:35 pm

I’m confused.

Mr Glesser designed and produced the Military, but we who know better, want to form a syndicate to refine it?

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant!

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